The
following is a list of related links to accompany your reading:
--Session
Start: Sun Dec 17 20:51:26 2000
[20:51]
<Deena> :Serves cookies all around
[20:51]
<mAz> Hi Helen
[20:51]
<Helen> Hello
[20:51]
<Deena> Yeah, I can't figure out how to do that, but Helen
and Sue can. Hi Helen, Sue just went to check the log.
[20:52]
<Helen> Me too! I'm paranoid....
[20:52]
<Deena> starts thinking about firewood and chopping logs
to keep the heat in.
[20:52]
<mAz> Just how many logs do we NEED tonight.
[20:52]
<log1> Helen, I have just found something out about the
log.
[20:52]
mAz laughs.
[20:52]
<Helen> Yes?
[20:52]
<Deena> Yep. I've lost chats, but I don't want to lose
this one.
[20:52]
<Ev> All this talk about chopping logs makes me nervous.
[20:52]
<mAz> And now they're talking to each other.
[20:52]
Andrew_Stern has joined #trace
[20:52]
<log1> It is adding this on to the end of the last log.
[20:52]
<Deena> Hi Andrew!
[20:52]
<Andrew_Stern> Hi :-)
[20:52]
<Helen> Mine is time stamped by day.
[20:52]
<log1> I am now going to another machine.
[20:52]
mAz greets Andrew
[20:52]
Deena serves wine, cheese and hugs all around
[20:54]
<Helen> Hello all!
[20:54]
Andrew_Stern is now known as Andrew
[20:54]
Alan_Sondheim has joined #trace
[20:54]
<Helen> Do we have enough logs now? Could float down a
river with this lot!
[20:54]
<mAz> Hi Alan
[20:54]
<Helen> Deena, forget the : just the /
[20:54]
<Ev> Deena. Just use slash....no :
[20:54]
<Alan_Sondheim> Hi everyone - glad to see logging here
-
[20:54]
Deena likes logs
[20:55]
Deena takes back the cookies and passes around proper English
tea, biscuits and gravy.
[20:55]
Deena passes around American biscuits and gravy and mince pies
and wine
[20:55]
Ev notices Alan and gives him a hug hello@@@
[20:56]
<Helen>But we're not here to play around!
[20:56]
<Alan_Sondheim> Hi Ev @
[20:56]
vika has joined #trace
[20:56]
<vika> Afternoon.
[20:56]
mAz has quit IRC (QUIT: Leaving )
[20:56]
<Deena> Right, we have to stock up before chatting!
[20:56]
Ev admits to being very fond of all ergon.
[20:56]
mAz has joined #trace
[20:56]
<Helen> Hello vika, Alan, Andrew, Ev, and Deena of course
and all the logs.
[20:56]
<Helen> Oh and mAz!
[20:57]
<mAz> Sorry, I'm dodging about a bit.
[20:57]
Guy_Vardi has joined #trace
[20:57]
<Helen> Anyone else is free to log too....
[20:57]
<Sue> Hi everyone I'm Sue now but I am still logging.
[20:57]
<Deena> The logs will be cleaned up (spelling, typos,
etc.) and posted on the ELO site with the rest of the program
logs...as soon as I can.
[20:58]
<Sue> I see we have lots of people but where is Espen?
[20:58]
<Deena> Hi Guy, glad you could make it. We are waiting
for Espen.
[20:58]
Matthew_Kirschenbaum has joined #trace
[20:58]
<Guy_Vardi> Hi, thanks. Hi everyone.
[20:58]
<Alan_Sondheim> Hi Matt --
[20:59]
<vika> Hello Guy, Matt.
[20:59]
Margaret_Penfold has joined #trace
[21:00]
<Alan_Sondheim> Hi Margaret!
[21:00]
Margaret_Penfold is now known as Margaret
[21:00]
<Sue>There are a lot of people at webboard - maybe they
can't all get in.
[21:00]
<Sue> I will broadcast a message.
[21:00]
David_Kolb has joined #trace
[21:00]
<Margaret> Hello everyone.
[21:00]
<Helen>Tell them to use mirc if they can.
[21:00]
<vika> Hello Margaret, nice to see you again, David.
[21:00]
Chris_Funkhouser has joined #trace
[21:01]
Julianne_Chatelain has joined #trace
[21:01]
Julianne_Chatelain is now known as julianne
[21:01]
David_Kolb has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[21:01]
<Deena> Hi, Espen should be joining us very quickly.
[21:01]
<Helen> Hi Chris, Julianne, we haven't started yet.
[21:01]
<Chris_Funkhouser> Alan: I'm new to this, don't know how
to whisper...
[21:02]
Matthew_Kirschenbaum is now known as Mattk.
[21:02]
Barry_Tench has joined #trace
[21:02]
<Helen> double click on a name on the right to whisper.
[21:02]
<Alan_Sondheim> Where is Espen now, physically?
[21:02]
<Deena> Right, many people are not familiar with this
interface, could you give us some hints?
[21:03]
<Deena> Espen is doing a program at Brown in Providence
RI right now.
[21:03]
<Helen> OK, to speak, just type and return.
[21:03]
<Helen> To do actions type /me actions.
[21:03]
David_Kolb has joined #trace
[21:03]
<Helen> e.g. /me claps
[21:03]
Alan_Sondheim runs into action.
[21:03]
mAz runs into the door.
[21:03]
<vika> Helen - right. That's if you're IRCing, but aren't
other people doing this through a web browser?
[21:03]
<Helen> It should work in the Java applet too.
[21:03]
Margaret getting lost between action and demonstration.
[21:04]
<Alan_Sondheim> mAz are you hurt?
[21:04]
mAz runs rings round Ev by way of answer to Alan's question
[21:04]
<Helen> if you want to change your name type /nick changed-name.
[21:04]
Helen is now known as changed-name.
[21:04]
changed-name is now known as Helen.
[21:05]
David_Kolb is now known as David.
[21:05]
Barry_Tench is now known as Barry.
[21:04]
<Deena> We are chatting with Espen today about work and
play in hypertext reading, but lets introduce ourselves.
[21:05]
<Sue> I think Espen is nearly here. He is logged on at
webboard.
[21:05]
Espen_Aarseth has joined #trace
[21:05]
<Espen_Aarseth> Hello at last.
[21:05]
<Sue> Welcome Espen!
[21:06]
<Chris_Funkhouser> Greetings.
[21:06]
Katherine_Parrish has joined #trace
[21:06]
<Deena> Helen, Sue, and I are your hosts today, and we
are talking with Espen Aarseth.
[21:06]
<Espen_Aarseth>Thanks!
[21:06]
<Espen_Aarseth> Sorry I'm late.
[21:06]
Alan_Sondheim is now known as Alan.
[21:06]
Katherine_Parrish is now known as Katherine.
[21:06]
<Deena> In many chats, we have an award for who mentions
Espen's name first...but I think we'll forego that for this
one :)
[21:06]
Espen_Aarseth is now known as Espen
[21:07]
Chris_Funkhouser is now known as Chris
[21:07]
Alan has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[21:07]
<Deena> Espen, we were all introducing ourselves.
[21:07]
<Deena> What are you working on at Brown?
[21:08]
Jill_Walker has joined #trace
[21:08]
<Espen> I am trying to write a book on digital power.
[21:08]
<Chris> Power in what sense?
[21:08]
Carolyn_Black has joined #trace
[21:08]
<Carolyn_Black> Hi
[21:08]
<Espen> Politics, democracy, history.
[21:08]
Jill_Walker is now known as Jill/
[21:09]
Alan_Sondheim has joined #trace
[21:09]
vika zafrin is a grad student at Brown's Italian Studies Dept,
doing her M.A. thesis as a HT project.
[21:09]
<Sue> OK, I am Sue Thomas, novelist and Artistic Director
of trAce.
[21:09]
<Barry> Oh can I introduce myself...Barry that's me.
[21:09]
<Espen> experiments with the interface.
[21:09]
<Deena> Espen, do you see common themes in digital power
and in reading and categorizing ergodic literature?
[21:09]
<Espen> How does one do the star thing?
[21:10]
Katherine tries an emote.
[21:10]
Andrew is working on an interactive drama project, and previously
worked on petz and babyz interactive characters.
[21:10]
<Sue> Espen, type /me laughs.
[21:10]
<David> David Kolb teaches philosophy at Bates College
and writes hypertext and about hypertext and argument and academic
scholarship.
[21:10]
<Jill> How do I emote?
[21:10]
Espen cire
[21:10]
<vika> Type /me does something to emote.
[21:10]
<Espen> OK, fine, good to go.
[21:10]
Deena takes an aside to note that ergodic is Espen's neologism
from ergon work and hodos path--working literature where you
must work to find the paths to follow.
[21:10]
<Jill> I'm Jill Walker, doing a Ph.D. on ht and moos and
stuff in Bergen.
[21:10]
Carolyn_Black has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[21:11]
Helen is a web-writer and web-editor for trAce and an evangelist
for hypertext especially amongst kids.
[21:11]
Katherine is doing a masters in computer applications in education
in Toronto.
[21:11]
Deena encourages people to share URLs we can look at later for
their projects.
[21:11]
<Espen> Deena: not really, only in an ideological sense.
[21:11]
<Chris> With all these words seems like there should be
sounds too...speaking of interface...
[21:11]
<Deena> Espen, in what ideological sense?
[21:12]
<Mattk> Matt Kirschenbaum, English Dept, University of
Kentucky -- work on image-based computing, the William Blake
archive, ht theory, other stuff.
[21:12]
<Sue> Chris, we have just set up an experimental voice
recorder - I will paste the URL.
[21:12]
<Espen> Well, there is no empowerment in working in itself.
[21:12]
Alan_Sondheim is teaching a course at SVA on internet culture/philosophy.
[21:12]
Deena is impressed with the knowledge of digital literature
(and power) in this room.
[21:12]
<Espen> Slaves can make things or play games.
[21:13]
<Chris> Chris Funk- NJIT prof., poet, editor.
[21:13]
R_Adams has joined #trace
[21:13]
<Margaret> Margaret is doing nothing except writing unpublishable
novels.
[21:13]
<Helen> A help page for this chat (and IRC) is at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/online/moo.htm
[21:13]
<Margaret> Hi Randy
[21:13]
<Espen> So hypertext readers are not more powerful than
others, to put it stupidly.
[21:13]
Katherine smiles.
[21:14]
<Deena> Yet, it takes a certain mindset, or wiping of
expectations to read hypertext. In many of the chats we've had,
we've found that students have a difficult time reading hypertext--that
it is too much "work."
[21:14]
<Deena> How can we develop hypertext readers? What kind
of power do hypertext readers need?
[21:14]
<vika> Deena, have they given specific reasons it's too
much work?
[21:15]
<Espen> Well, anything you lit prof tells you to read
is often too much.
[21:15]
<Chris> & the concept of CYBERTEXT is even more difficult
to get across to student.
[21:15]
<Alan_Sondheim> But it is a different kind of /divided/
labor -
[21:15]
<Espen> Just say games.
[21:15]
<Chris> Good ideas, Esp.
[21:15]
<Sue> Question - is there a difference between the reading
of hypertext fiction and hypertext non-fiction ?
[21:15]
<Deena> Espen, is there a difference between the games
and the literature in terms of expectations?
[21:15]
<Espen> Sure.
[21:15]
<Sue> Are you referring especially to one or the other?
or both?
[21:16]
Deena chimes in with Sue, and are the expectations different
in fiction/nonfiction.
[21:16]
<Espen>To me, hypertext is just an ideological phrase
without analytical meaning.
[21:16]
<Deena> Vika, a lot of the reasons have been that people
find the paths too hard to follow, that they can't make sense
of the story, or that they don't know when they have read the
work. Which reflects a certain base set of expectations in reading--that
you can find the definitive answers.
[21:17]
<Alan_Sondheim> Doesn't hypertext involve a different
kind of musculature?
[21:17]
<Sue> I would like to raise the question about what they
are using it FOR....
[21:17]
<Chris> How is hypertext an "ideological phrase"?
[21:17]
<Sue> Reading a hypertext car manual, for instance, is
quite different to reading a hypertext detective story.
[21:17]
<vika> Deena, thanks, that's pretty much the answer I
was expecting. I've also noticed that some people simply find
it hard on their eyes to read large amounts of brain-consuming
stuff on a screen, and transfer their frustration to it.
[21:18]
<Espen> People are using it to rally, not to understand.
[21:18]
<vika>The fact that it's hypertext and path-y in nature
(or cybertext).
[21:18]
<Sue> Rally?
[21:18]
<Deena> Espen, how are people using it to rally?
[21:18]
<Deena> Using what to rally?
[21:18]
<Espen> Hypertext.
[21:18]
<Sue> what do you mean by 'rally'?
[21:18]
<Deena> Wants to hear more about Alan's ideas of hypertext
musculature.
[21:18]
<Espen> It is just a word with many different references
used in many different ways.
[21:19]
Julianne is a gameplaying thingmaking slave-- I mean writer--
from New England who recently discovered she used the term cybertext
incorrectly in her recent DAC01 submission and says hi to all
esp vika (we met at enarrative1).
[21:19]
Jill has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer ).
[21:19]
<Sue> Could you explain the way in which you're using
the word 'rally' here?
[21:19]
<Alan_Sondheim> Using the mouse, different muscles that
require conscious hand/eye orientation - I think the phenomenology
of this is often overlooked.
[21:19]
<Espen> Political rally.
[21:19]
<Sue> Alan I so much agree.
[21:19]
Claire_Dinsmore has joined #trace
[21:20]
<Sue> Political rally , OK.
[21:20]
Andrew wonders if the phenomenology will change significantly
when ht is read on e-books instead of computers.
[21:20]
<Deena> Espen, could you say the word again? Which is
being used in a lot of connotation?
[21:20]
<Espen> It is an attempt to dominate the field of digital
writing.
[21:20]
Ed_Bruce has joined #trace
[21:20]
<Mattk> rallying, etc.: Stuart Moulthrop once said --
can't remember where/when -- that hypermedia is multimedia we
like; is hypertext cybertext we like?
[21:20]
Helen welcomes Claire and Ed we are discussing how we read hypertext.
[21:20]
<vika> Matt - or the other way around?
[21:21]
<Deena> Alan, I like the idea of physically reading being
different.
[21:21]
<Alan_Sondheim> How would you define digital writing in
general, then? Would you also include, say, Mud-texting as such,
would this also be a form of digital writing?
[21:21]
<Espen> Of course.
[21:21]
<Deena> Espen, how is it an attempt to dominate the field
of digital writing?
[21:21]
<Espen> Digital writing is not, I think, an exciting concept.
[21:22]
<Espen> In itself, we need a more vague and enticing word
for it
[21:22]
<Alan_Sondheim> Does this have to do, then, with the institutionalization
of hypertext as an apparent foundation for online discourse
in general?
[21:22]
<Espen> Yes, something like that.
[21:22]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Do you really think the name will really
engender interest in the act/genre?
[21:22]
<Deena> What words are we using now for digital writing?
And do the labels mean a lot? the TrAce competition, used new
media writing and asked participants to define it. How are we
now defining this dynamic field?
[21:22]
<Espen> Sure.
[21:23]
<Deena> How do different names spark interest in the genre?
[21:23]
M_B has joined #trace
[21:23]
<Chris> Where I teach, they want sexy sounding terminology.
[21:23]
<Espen> If you can get everyone to accept that hypertext=digital
writing, then certain values, attached to hypertext, will dominate
the field.
[21:23]
<Helen> Does it matter what we call it, so long as we
attract readers and writers? When it's kids I call it adventure
writing or interactive games in text.
[21:23]
<Sue> We will be releasing that info in early January
Deena - needless to say, very very few entrants described themselves
as writers.
[21:24]
<Espen>Is there really an "it" there?
[21:24]
<Sue> Espen can you say more about those values?
[21:24]
<Helen> Perhaps what matters is the CONTENT of the works,
not what we call them.
[21:24]
<Andrew> I agree.
[21:24]
<David> Is "text" so clear and definite that we can contrast
"hypertext" to it? Or aren't we talking about genres more particularly?
[21:24]
<Deena> I think the it here is far too broad. We continue
to talk about electrons and writing as if they went together
to form a coherent whole. But what are we really talking about?
[21:24]
<Espen> About the hypertext ideology?
[21:25]
<M_B> Can't get the hang of this whisper thing. Intellectual
discussion?
[21:25]
<Alan_Sondheim> Wouldn't you really be talking about discursive
formations, and different modes of representation, accession,
and so forth? And do these definitions matter - how, for example,
would one distinguish MOO from other MUD discourse?...
[21:26]
<Helen> So long as no-one calls them ebooks I'm happy!
[21:26]
<Deena> Hi M_B, just click twice on the person's name
that you want to whisper to and a private window will appear.
[21:27]
Deena tosses around new names for hypertexts and cybertexts
and discourses along with a second platter of cookies that keep
being renamed biscuits
[21:27]
<Espen> Just a side note: I am afraid the text window
is very small, so I miss a lot of arguments when I type my own.
[21:27]
<Helen> Surely we have to use LESS intellectual language
if we want to attract a readership outside academia?
[21:27]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen, I'd be interested in your take
on multi-media - how it relates to ergodic literature - whether
it is a subset in a sense -
[21:27]
<julianne> Alan, I'm hoping those definitions don't matter,
because I don't understand them.(grin)
[21:27]
<CFUNK> Seems like multimedia can be ergodic, tho most
of it isn't.
[21:27]
<Espen> Multimedia is another hopelessly vague term.
[21:28]
<Andrew> How interested are hypertext writers in attracting
a readership outside academia, anyway?
[21:28]
<Alan_Sondheim> By multimedia I mean work that involves
moving dynamics of image, text, and sound, within the framework
of the screen.
[21:28]
<Margaret> Hypertext for me does not necessarily mean
a choice between two paths but an option to be gather extra
information.
[21:28]
julianne whispers, "Espen, float the window and drag to resize...?"
[21:28]
<Espen> Like animated cartoons?
[21:28]
<Deena> Good point. Are we interested in getting outside
academia, and are we succeeding? Claire's journal, Cauldron
is a lovely web work, Claire, does it attract a lot of non academics?
[21:28]
R_Adams thinking about how my neck sometimes hurts when reading
from the screen, hard to get comfortable, but, oddly, I have
no trouble reading say, BBC online: do I use a different part
of my brain when reading news as opposed to 'hypertext literature'?
[21:29]
julianne thinks R_Adams' which part of the brain question is
interesting.
[21:29]
<Sue> re Randy's point - all webusers read hypertext.
[21:29]
<Helen> If the content absorbs you and the interface is
properly designed, then there isn't so much trouble reading
it.
[21:29]
<Deena> Multimedia can be multipathed (multi course-al)
or single-pathed.
[21:29]
<Sue> Isn't the whole term just becoming obsolete?
[21:29]
Ed_Bruce is now known as Ed
[21:30]
<CFUNK> Anyone seen any good cybertext performances lately?
[21:30]
Deena has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[21:30]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I have no idea really, no one ever responds
- I get 1-2000 visits a week tho.
[21:30]
<Sue> We might just as well talk about 'alphabet' writers.
[21:30]
<Espen> Or writers.
[21:30]
<julianne> Let's go for the jugular of the posted question:
how can we get people PLAYing with whatever-we're-calling-it?
[21:30]
<Alan_Sondheim> I don't think so, Sue - I think there
are differences in the way worlds are created, maintained, split,
etc.
[21:31]
mez has joined #trace
[21:31]
<mez> lo all.
[21:31]
<vika> Julianne - really nifty interface. Lure them in
with pretty pictures, then throw brain-consuming stuff at them?
[21:31]
<Alan_Sondheim> Some of these stem from the classic novel
- being within the phenomenological horizon of Bovary for example
is different from hypertext reading which is different from
opening video windows etc.
[21:31]
<Andrew> You're unfortunately probably fighting against
the expectation for graphics and animation, that a lot people
seem to want when they use the computer.
[21:31]
julianne thinks about vika's "seduction" idea!
[21:32]
<Espen> Andrew, right, see Moulthrop's Reagan
library.
[21:32]
julianne looks at her index cards: engagement, immersion, FLOW
STATE...
[21:32]
Katherine wonders why that has to be a "fight" - the expectations
of animation & graphics.
[21:33]
vika nods at Andrew and notes that, for her, that's exactly
the problem: how to minimize the use of graphics and (esp.)
animation, while having enough of it to capture the att'n.
[21:33]
<Andrew> But then again, traditional books are as popular
as ever, right? So text shouldn't necessarily be the problem...
[21:33]
<Helen> Indeed not Andrew.
[21:33]
<Andrew> Aren't more books being sold now than ever? Or
is that wrong?
[21:34]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen, could you comment on interfaces
such as The Palace - the GUI chats - and what you might see
as their relationship to/inheritance from text-based Ms?
[21:34]
<Deena> Espen, how can we appeal to the nonacademic community?
[21:34]
<Helen> It's that book readers have expectations and patterns
of behavior -- they give a book a little while to get interesting,
hypertext (whatever) readers often give up too quickly because
they haven't developed patterns of usage yet.
[21:34]
<Espen> I don't think the question of graphics is the
most important one to ask.
[21:34]
<Alan_Sondheim> Deena we already do - at least my demographics
are wider.
[21:34]
<Claire_Dinsmore> In a way, though, I think that might
be a human inclination towards a tactile, sensual connection
we miss with the digital.
[21:34]
<David> How does "the academic community" and "the artistic
community" and "the writers' community" fit together ... and
are these really unified groups that can be appealed to?
[21:34]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen - but the graphics on say The Palace
create a different sort of reading and interweaving altogether.
[21:35]
<Deena> Espen, Alan, Claire, do you see differences in
expectations between academic and nonacademic readers?
[21:35]
<Alan_Sondheim> Once you have text balloons you have different
forms of interference for example.
[21:35]
<Deena> Do graphics create a different sense of expectations?
[21:35]
<Espen> It depends on what the medium is meant to do.
[21:35]
<CFUNK> Deena, I see differences in expectations from
younger readers & "older" readers.
[21:35]
<Mattk> I don't mean to be cynical, but here goes . .
. hypertext will "breakthrough" when it is marketed and distributed
by a major commercial publisher.
[21:36]
<Sue> Can someone please define 'academic' and 'nonacademic'
readers?
[21:36]
<Andrew> And distributed on e-books that you can read
in bed.
[21:36]
mez wanduhs thru quest[ings]ions, sp.aces...
[21:36]
R_Adams sees a huge gap between academic and nonacademic readers.
[21:36]
<Helen> Academic = lit types in universities like many
here.
[21:36]
<Espen> Matt, I couldn't disagree more, for once.
[21:36]
<Barry> I read in the bath, in the park, I sit in my bed
and read...can't take a computer to those places with me.
[21:36]
<Alan_Sondheim> I think the distinction between acad.
and non-acad. might be spurious altogether in terms of reader/viewership.
[21:36]
<Helen> Nonacademic = general (intelligent) readers like
others here!
[21:36]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I find the academic readings a little
more open to the experimental nature of text [generalization,
of course].
[21:36]
<Sue> Helen that's not right.
[21:36]
Margaret wonders if the reason choice is more welcome in a game
than in a novel is because the choice is seen as an intellectual
challenge in the game but guesswork in the novel.
[21:36]
<Alan_Sondheim> Barry, I can, and more people will be
able to.
[21:36]
<Mattk>The situation of contemporary hypertext is no different
from many previous savant grade/small press publication histories.
[21:37]
<Sue> I think it's more about the way the text might be
approached, but I am suspicious of it.
[21:37]
<Alan_Sondheim> Except, Matt, that some pages get hundreds
of thousands of hits, and the economic/political economic situation
is very different.
[21:37]
Ev nods at Margaret and her point.
[21:37]
<Barry> I haven't finished paying for this one yet.
[21:37]
mez disemotes.
[21:37]
mez has quit IRC (QUIT: .i.dream.the.n e X ][t][ us. )
[21:37]
<David> Are we overly influenced by the ideal/goal of
the breakthrough to Big Audiences? Won't things get more fractionated
as media multiply?
[21:38]
<CFUNK> who gets 100000s of hits, Alan?
[21:38]
<Espen> For me, the question is what nonsequential writing
is meant to do.
[21:38]
<Deena> Will things get more fractured, or will we get
a different set of mass expectations?
[21:38]
<Sue> Ok, Espen - fire away!
[21:38]
<Espen> What is the point in using it_
[21:38]
<Alan_Sondheim>TrAce for one thing, Beehive - over a year
or so I think trace gets 3m?
[21:38]
<Andrew> What do you think it's meant to do?
[21:38]
<Deena> Right. What IS nonsequential writing meant to
do? How are we meant to read it?
[21:39]
Helen nods at Alan, 4 million for trAce.
[21:39]
<Espen> I am not the right person to ask.
[21:39]
<CFUNK> Seems like n-s writing is meant to open doors...
[21:39]
<Espen> What is the manifesto for hyperfictionalists?
[21:39]
<Sue> trAce is not 100% 'hypertext'.
[21:39]
<Alan_Sondheim> But is there a teleology involved at all?
I don't think Ns writing is _meant_ to do _necessarily_ anything.
[21:39]
<Helen> Why are you not the right person to ask Espen?
[21:39]
<Deena> Espen, all, what does Ns writing get us that we
do not get in sequential, linear writing?
[21:39]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Well, that's nothing new to hypertext
though.
[21:39]
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[21:39]
<Sue> It is however about 99% alphabet.
[21:39]
<Deena> What doors does nonsequential writing open?
[21:39]
<Espen> Because I don't write or publish these things.
[21:40]
<Andrew> And what new cliffs can you fall off from...
[21:40]
<Helen> Some ideas must be expressed as poem, some as
text, some better suit hypertext.
[21:40]
<Ev> Or is it more that h-text is a way of writing that
more closely approximates the writer's thoughtways?
[21:40]
<Deena> Hi Jamie, we are talking about what sequential
writing is meant to do.
[21:40]
<Jill_Walker> No, what NONsequential writing is meant
to do ;)
[21:40]
<Deena> Espen, in Cybertext, you talk about the myth that
nonsequential writing mirrors pathways. Why do you describe
that as a myth?
[21:40]
Jamie_Blustein is now known as Haimish
[21:40]
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[21:41]
<Alan_Sondheim> This discussion is really weird. Why on
earth is any kind of writing supposed to do any kind of thing?
I don't understand the presuppositions here.
[21:41]
<Espen> Pathway mirroring__
[21:41]
<CFUNK> DL: Instead of dogmatically pounding ordered details
at readers, opens a field of information that readers can digest
- if they choose to -as they wish.
[21:41]
<Espen> l art pour l art.
[21:42]
<Jill_Walker> Mm, sometimes, Chris, but often the reader
doesn't have much choice there...
[21:42]
<Deena> Good point Alan. I think part of the major problem
is that we are glossing over a lot of presuppositions and expectations
in writing, teaching and reading here.
[21:42]
Helen nods at Chris Funk.
[21:43]
<Deena> Espen, could you talk more about pathway mirroring?
[21:43]
<Sue> Is it not true that people in their late teens/early
20s can absorb huge amounts of parallel texts - music, short
messages, phones, e-mail etc. - they have no p[roblme with non-seq
stuff?
[21:43]
<Espen> I don't really know what that refers to, Deena.
[21:43]
<Sue> But they might not choose to read an 'academic'
hypertext.
[21:43]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I think how a reader approaches the
non-sequential element of hypertexts really depends on their
past experience with literature - trad/linear and/or experimental/modernist.
[21:43]
<Jill_Walker> Just as they may not choose to read Ulysses
or Shakespeare!
[21:43]
<Sue> Exactly Jill.
[21:43]
Helen nods at Jill.
[21:44]
<David> Maybe the tie that needs to be broken is the association
with self-consciously avant-garde literature?
[21:44]
<Alan_Sondheim> I think that "sequentiality" might be
the wrong approach as well ns or s - instead couldn't one speak
of a discursive field?
[21:44]
<Helen> Yes, David!
[21:44]
<Sue> Maybe - ahem - we should look not at the form but
at the content of these 'academic' hypertexts!
[21:44]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Exactly Jill.
[21:44]
David applauds Sue.
[21:44]
<Andrew> Where is the middle ground between trad/linear
and experimental/modernist, that won't scare away nonacademic
readers?
[21:44]
Deena was going back to the idea that nonsequential text somehow
mirrored how we think more than linear text does.
[21:44]
<Jill_Walker> Instead of a "literary" hypertext.
[21:45]
<Claire_Dinsmore>Thank you Sue:)
[21:45]
Helen thinks this is true, could never keep thoughts linear
enough to write a novel!
[21:45]
<Guy_Vardi> Sue: it is true, but they use different channels
for perception.
[21:45]
<Espen>There is no reason why alternative formats must
be avant garde.
[21:45]
<Alan_Sondheim> I wonder if Michel Dufrenee (phenomenology
of literary experience) might not be useful here.
[21:45]
<Jill_Walker> Sorry, that was meant to say "why do you
want millions of people to read literary hypertexts? If you
want millions of readers, write a web soap opera.
[21:45]
<Sue>True Espen.
[21:45]
<Andrew> Sue I wanted to say that earlier, but I was afraid
someone would say , "but form is content" :-)
[21:45]
<Sue> Andrew, let it all hang out (hypertextually of course)
!
[21:46]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I think that really depends on the creator
- what audience you're aiming at. I write for thinkers, artists
- they needn't be academic, but neither do they like Stephen
King.
[21:46]
<Andrew> But web soap operas are boring.
[21:46]
<Helen> Hypertext is just a form, there can be as much
difference as between Jeffrey Archer and James Joyce.
[21:46]
<Sue> Agreed Claire, me too.
[21:47]
<Helen> Yes, but at the moment there is no way to tell
which type is which before you start reading...
[21:47]
<Deena> Espen, are there useful ways to distinguish between
the different forms that hypertext takes?
[21:47]
<Espen> Well, I think hypertext is not even a form.
[21:47]
<David> Hypertext is a kind of writing technology more
than it is a literary genre.
[21:47]
<Sue> Agreed, David.
[21:47]
Helen nods at David.
[21:47]
Margaret is thinking about individual pathways, academic pathways,
standard pathways.
[21:47]
<vika> What kind of audience to paper-book writers write
for? How does a book become a best-seller? And do you want your
text (in whatever form) to be a "best-seller"? To whom?
[21:47]
<Alan_Sondheim> What is a genre?
[21:47]
<Espen> I don't accept the term as a category.
[21:47]
<Deena> Here we get back to what is IT? What are we talking
about? ...
[21:47]
<Sue> All it is , is a technical link between 2 pages.
[21:47]
Katherine grins.
[21:47]
Deena begins to wonder how we can continue to write and talk
about something so ill defined.
[21:48]
<Guy_Vardi> Jill: I hope that soap opera will be a success.
It might raise some interesting questions.
[21:48]
<Deena> Does anyone know the URL of the web soap opera
Marjorie Luesebrink is writing?
[21:48]
<Haimish> I'm confused. How come HT is a technology?
[21:48]
<Espen> It is not.
[21:48]
<Alan_Sondheim> Sue, not even that; it can also be a link
from one part of a page to another part, or to itself identically
(in fact the def. of <BR> in xhtml <BR /> is something
like that.
[21:48]
<Margaret> Perhaps a genre is an explored pathway many
people can follow.
[21:48]
<Sue> As I see it, a hyperlink is a text connector in
the same way that a door is a room connector - but the important
thing is the room, not the door.
[21:48]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Boo to you Alan - but then again, you
and I differ severely on our takes on pop-culture.
[21:48]
<Margaret> Perhaps 'academic' writing is just another
genre.
[21:49]
<Deena> But we seem to be saying the ht is NOT a form,
that it is NOT a genre. What is it?
[21:49]
<Haimish> If HT is not only a technology then HTML/XML/whatever
is just one method of presentation, right?
[21:49]
<vika> Deena: a vehicle?
[21:49]
<Deena> Right. We have HyperCard, StorySpace, etc. as
well.
[21:49]
<Espen> An ideology.
[21:49]
<David> Deena, are you saying the link structure is what
is presented in these various vehicles?
[21:50]
<Guy_Vardi> Deena: it's a medium.
[21:50]
<Sue> Espen, why is it an ideology?
[21:50]
<Helen> Yes, the links are the important thing.... the
link is what distinguishes this form.
[21:50]
<Alan_Sondheim> Of course, Haimish - you could already
do ht (such as it is) in HyperCard.
[21:50]
<Espen>That is the only way it makes sense for me to look
at it.
[21:50]
<Deena> Yes, I think it is a medium where we can present
information in different forms.
[21:50]
<Sue> I don't understand what you mean though.
[21:50]
<Haimish> Would I be terribly pedantic and unhelpful if
I jumped up and down screaming that hypertext is not constrained
to linked HT?
[21:50]
<Helen> No go ahead Haimish.
[21:50]
<Espen> You make my point.
[21:51]
<Alan_Sondheim> Not at all, H. - you also have <refresh>
tags and even the presupposition of linking where there might
not be any -
[21:51]
<David> Ted Nelson had some ideas, for instance "stretchtext"
that wasn't linked in the usual way.
[21:51]
<Deena> Espen, to clarify is the only way it makes sense
is to look at it as a medium?
[21:51]
<Espen> People can't agree on what is and what is not
ht.
[21:51]
<Alan_Sondheim> You might have null links, random links,
no linking, recursive linking, etc.
[21:51]
<Haimish> Consider that I just made a lot of noise. I'm
not good with these technology things :)
[21:51]
Deena hands out trampolines for everyone who now wants to jump
up and down screaming.
[21:51]
<Helen>To me refresh and others are just another form
of "link" between one and another piece of info/text.
[21:51]
<Helen> Still links....
[21:51]
<Sue> Are we really talking about a conceptual shift in
the way we approach a text?
[21:52]
<vika> Sue, sure, why not? Approach not only reading a
text, but writing one as well.
[21:52]
<Sue> Are we talking psychology and brain?
[21:52]
<Alan_Sondheim> Sue - wouldn't that be it? And how worlds,
worldings, musculatures, strategies of interaction, play out?
[21:52]
<Deena> How do we reconcile a conceptual shift with a
medium?
[21:52]
<Alan_Sondheim> (Which I must say is why Cybertext is
really a seminal work for a lot of us.)
[21:52]
<Helen>There is only one link in conventional text....
word to word, page to page, linear. The "new" forms/media/whatever
all provide alternative links in a vast and complicated structure.
[21:52]
<Sue> We had to make a conceptual shift to understand
a photograph, and then a film.
[21:52]
Mattk smiles, waves goodbye.
[21:53]
<David> But there are also links, echoes, references,
etc. in conventional texts.
[21:53]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I really don't think it's new - except
in terms of technology.
[21:53]
Deena breaks in with a time check--we promised Espen to keep
him for an hour, but we can all chat later. Are there other
questions for Espen?
[21:53]
<Claire_Dinsmore> And I don't think 'new' is important
- content, as Sue said.
[21:53]
<Espen> So, where are we+__)
[21:53]
Julianne looks at more index cards: (1) There aren't yet enough
good examples of The Stuff; (2) How do we get people to read
it? Thinks they are linked.
[21:53]
<Helen> Mmmm but the old way links were implied and inferred,
now they are present, axtant, visible, usable.
[21:54]
<CFUNK> Seen any good cybertexts lately, Espen?
[21:54]
<Deena> Julianne, maybe developing good content in this
medium is the key...
[21:54]
<Haimish> There have been non-linear texts (in the sense
of the signified things (not the signs) ) for hundreds of years.
So why does there have be a conceptual shift?
[21:54]
<Sue> Haimish, maybe there doesn't.
[21:54]
<Andrew> What kinds of content do y'all think is lacking
or not yet seen in hypertext works to date?
[21:54]
<Guy_Vardi>The major problem is to define the relation
between interaction and narrative.
[21:54]
<Espen> Well, Chris, I work with games these days.
[21:54]
<Alan_Sondheim> Haimish because the actions, modes of
distribution, etc. are qualitatively very different.
[21:54]
<Haimish> Oh, I hadn't read Sue's comment.
[21:54]
<Helen> Academic games or nonacademic games ;-)
[21:54]
Deena wants more humor in hypertexts.
[21:54]
<Alan_Sondheim> Sometimes I think the past gets in the
way far too often...
[21:54]
<CFUNK> I know almost nothing about games. Which ones
are good?
[21:55]
<Espen> Guy, that's a big can of worms.
[21:55]
<CFUNK> Well, I am fishing...
[21:55]
<Claire_Dinsmore> But they have been for a long time in
artists 'books' that have often been objects, not just paper
and covers.
[21:55]
R_Adams applauds Deena.
[21:55]
<Deena> What games are interesting now, Espen?
[21:55]
<Espen> Tetris
(editor's note, this link goes to a history of tetris)
[21:55]
<Deena> Why?
[21:55]
<Sue> Ah that is the only game I enjoy!
[21:55]
<Alan_Sondheim> Aadventure still.
[21:56]
<Espen> It is so simple, yet the best game ever, probably.
[21:56]
Deena hands out lots of nice juicy cans full of interesting
worms and wormholes.
[21:56]
<Andrew> From non-academic work I enjoy looking at nonlinear
movies like Timecode
or Run
Lola Run, over most of today's computer/videogames.
[21:56]
<Sue>They say that Tetris retunes your synapses.
[21:56]
<Sue> I play it to get to sleep.
[21:56]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen how do you rate it? (I'm thinking
of scrabble's phenomenology).
[21:56]
<Sue> I find it not hypnotic, but more meditative.
[21:57]
<Espen> Rate tetris (questionmark).
[21:57]
<Helen>The relationship between interaction and narrative
is another kind of link...
[21:57]
<Alan_Sondheim> Well, you say "the best game ever, probably."
[21:57]
<Sue> Espen - is there a narrative in Tetris?
[21:57]
<Espen> No.
[21:57]
<Sue> I have not imagined one.
[21:57]
<Deena> How would you categorize the relationship between
game and player?
[21:57]
<Helen> Interactivity is the enzyme that activates the
link structure...
[21:57]
<Sue> It goes beyond narrative - experience without narrative.
[21:57]
<Espen> Deena, that is a book, not a chat line.
[21:58]
<Alan_Sondheim> I think there is - the requisitioning
and collapsing of free space - The end is always in site, etc.
[21:58]
<Guy_Vardi> Helen: I am not sure. A link is one possible
implementation of interaction technique.
[21:58]
<Alan_Sondheim>The strategies may be considered tropes,
and so forth. Why isn't this a narrative?
[21:58]
<Deena> Are there lessons we can take from tetris to developing
interesting content in the hypertext medium?
[21:58]
<Espen> Alan, I think narrative is not the only measure.
[21:59]
<Alan_Sondheim> I agree with that of course.
[21:59]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Indeed!
[21:59]
<Sue> Me too.
[21:59]
<Guy_Vardi> Users need control?
[21:59]
<Deena> What are other measures?
[21:59]
<Espen> Deena, I seriously don't think so.
[21:59]
<Sue> I am currently writing a book which probably has
no narrative.
[22:00]
<Espen> If you want to make games, make games.
[22:00]
<David> Tetris keeps you going with events and feedback/fulfillment
and challenges. Is that no narrative or a lot of mininarratives?
[22:00]
<Sue> Hmmm David I will think about that.
[22:00]
<Espen> If you want to write fiction, write fiction.
[22:00]
<Helen> Everything has a narrative.
[22:00]
<Deena> Is there a link between feedback/fulfillment and
narrative?
[22:00]
<Guy_Vardi> Going to Russian formalist there is neither
suzert or fabula in tetris.
[22:01]
<Sue> Espen, I must admit that when I read you were working
on games, I imagined games with a narrative like Myst.
[22:01]
<Sue> Guy can you explain - that sounds interesting.
[22:01]
<CFUNK> I heard Moulthrop once give a paper glorifying
Myst as a great hypertext.
Editor's note: Stuart says: There's the
CM keynote and also an article in _Style_, which the keynote
became. Both are on my site.
The keynote is:
http://raven.ubalt.edu/staff/moulthrop/talks/cymount/
and the paper is:
http://raven.ubalt.edu/staff/moulthrop/essays/misadventure
I'm very fond of Myst and Riven both. I don't think I've praised
them as _hypertexts_ per se (though I seldom remember exactly
what I said), but I think they rate pretty highly as digital
fictions/cybertexts.
[22:01]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen, given all the narratological work
around, could you explain that?
[22:01]
<Deena> I think this conversation is a great motivator
to experiment with content in this medium.
[22:01]
<Espen> We don't know what narrative is.
[22:01]
Deena shrugs. That's OK we don't really know what writing, hypertext,
or nonsequential writing is, either.
[22:02]
<Espen> So, what is a narrative?
[22:02]
<David> Paul Ricoeur's book Time
and Narrative might be helpful, especially the stuff in
volume 3 on different kinds of narrative time.
[22:02]
Helen thinks -- a whole hour and we haven't even defined what
we're talking about!
[22:02]
<Deena> That's nothing, Helen, we've gone whole conferences
without defining what we are talking about.
[22:02]
<vika> What is a narrative, or what narrative is in general?
[22:02]
<Espen> It is a poorly understood concept.
[22:03]
<Guy_Vardi> You can divide narrative into fabula (the
general story) and suzet (the plot).
[22:03]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'd look back at the Schank and Abelson
stuff on scripts, goals, and understandings - tensions, fulfillments,
etc. I can't give an exact definition, but certainly a family
a usages would been possible...
[22:03]
<Deena> What is the general story? What is storytelling?
[22:03]
<CFUNK>The tootsie roll/lick paradigm: the world may never
know...
[22:03]
<Alan_Sondheim> Very poorly understood, but I think fundamental
to human cognition.
[22:03]
<Sue> Does there need to be a story?
[22:03]
<Deena> Is stream of consciousness narrative? Is relating
an action narrative?
[22:03]
<Espen> There you all go!
[22:03]
<Espen> Very good.
[22:03]
<Deena> Is describing someone narrative?
[22:04]
<Sue>There are other things beside story vs stream of
consc.
[22:04]
<Helen> Yes Deena, all of them.
[22:04]
<Espen> QED
[22:04]
<Margaret> Deena, you can turn it in to narrative internally.
[22:04]
Deena had always wondered about the voices in her head.
[22:04]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Yes, in a way I think part of the meaning
of hypertext, is the acknowledgment that we don't necessarily
need one.
[22:04]
<Alan_Sondheim> No QED, only that narrative, like everything
discussed here, is a field or fields, rather than contained
definition...
[22:04]
<Andrew> How is narrative more than just a chronicle?
[22:04]
<Sue> Agreed Andrew.
[22:04]
<Sue> Espen, have you written anything I can read about
tetris? Is anything available?
[22:04]
<Espen> I have a paper on games and spatiality online,
see http://www.hf.uib.no/hi/espen/papers/space/.
[22:05]
<R_Adams> Isn't narrative an account, a report or a story?
[22:05]
<Deena> Yes, Espen, all, where are good places to go to
discuss and find out about these interlocking fields of games,
narrative, and hypertext?
[22:05]
<Espen> DAC.
[22:05]
<Andrew> It's possible to make hypertext work without
being able to define and classify what you are making?
[22:06]
<Deena> Right, What is the URL for DAC?
It will be in April 2001 at Brown University.
[22:06]
<Espen> dac2001.org
[22:06]
<vika> Deena - I found http://www.eliterature.org/eve/index.shtml
useful.
[22:06]
<Guy_Vardi> It depends. you can treat narrative as a sequence
of event with a certain order (dramatic arc), or as interaction
between characters (Doom).
[22:06]
<Espen> Yes, alan< QED, a poorly understood field or
fields.
[22:07]
<Helen> Narrative is movement.
[22:07]
<CFUNK> OK interesting reading all of you here. Gotta
go in a minute. Holy happy days to you!
[22:08]
<mAz> If there _is_ no story then the reader can always
make one.
[22:08]
<Claire_Dinsmore> I'm not sure - forward/back/sequential
movement maybe, otherwise the term would be more inclusive than
I think it is.
[22:08]
<Espen> Guy, if narrative is interaction, what is this?
Narrative also?
[22:08]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'm curious why this discussion has focused
so much on definition and its dissolution by example. It's been
frustrating that way, as if we needed the specificity of terms
to discuss anything here today.
[22:08]
<Deena> Espen, thanks for a really enjoyable hour! I think
we have a lot of threads here we can continue, at trAce, ELO,
and at DAC.
[22:08]
<Sue> Yes, thanks Espen.
[22:08]
vika adds her thanks to Espen.
[22:09]
<Helen>Thank you for a stimulating discussion Espen.
[22:09]
<Espen> Hey, I wasn't finished!!
[22:09]
Alan_Sondheim also wants to thank Espen - whose book is probably
the best in this area (I/he thinks).
[22:09]
<Espen> Just kidding.
[22:09]
Sue laughs.
[22:09]
<Andrew> Maybe reading hypertext is so much work because
we don't even know what it is.
[22:09]
Julianne rattles her chains appreciatively.
[22:09]
<Helen> Give us your closing statement!!
[22:09]
<Deena> Thanks for coming all you guys! I'll pass around
more wine and cheese as fuel for discussion. Stay as long as
you like.
[22:09]
<Espen> My pleasure.
[22:09]
<Guy_Vardi> It is. Doom
might considered to be a very limited or shallow narrative.
[22:09]
<Deena> The chat, as with all ELO program chats will be
archived at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml
[22:10]
<vika> Espen, I don't think you'd be kicked off if you
decide to stay "off-the-clock."
[22:10]
Deena welcomes all, including Espen to stay and have fun.
[22:10]
<Sue> I need to go too - I enjoyed meeting you all.
[22:10]
<Deena> Guy, what is doom might?
[22:10]
<vika> Doom might be? Doom the kill-monsters computer
game?
[22:11]
<Claire_Dinsmore> Moi aussi, goodbye everyone.
[22:11]
<Espen> Narratives and games are different interfaces.
[22:11]
<Sue> Bye everyone - I have to go now.
[22:11]
mAz should go too.
[22:11]
<Deena> Right, Espen, there are similarities. I think
we can compare the interfaces.
[22:11]
vika wonders if she's missed narrative being defined. Might
a computer game (with its own interface) include a narrative
as part of its appeal?
[22:12]
<Guy_Vardi> Yes. Each character had his own motivation.
The interaction between the develops a narrative.
[22:12]
Deena wonders if games and narrative don't share more than we
suspect.
[22:12]
Julianne throws out a URL on"Full Reactive Eyes Environment"
(in new console game) http://www.feedmag.com/templates/printer.php3?a_id=1513
[22:12]
<Espen> Guy, that could be true for anything.
[22:12]
<Deena> The motivation in game playing seems to be the
same as in reading ht--to discover new facts, put things together
in new ways.
[22:12]
<Andrew> I know everybody wants to figure out "what it
is", but as writers/artists we could also imagine "what kind
of experience do I want to create", and not worry about how
to classify it... just worry about building it...
[22:13]
<Deena> Yes, the question for both game developers and
writers is really "What kind of experience do I want to
create?"
[22:13]
<Espen>The problem is that people see narrative as dominant
to games.
[22:13]
<Deena> Why do people see the narrating dominating the
games? Is it the storytelling in the game?
[22:13]
<vika> Depends on what kind of games, Espen. Interactive
fiction? Sure. Doom? Possibly, if you really stretch the definition
of narrative.
[22:14]
<Deena> But in games like tetris, there is no real storytelling
going on.
[22:14]
<Espen> Many reasons, Deena.
[22:14]
<Andrew> How does that become a problem?
[22:14]
<vika> Tetris? No.
[22:14]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'm curious, if tension/release (term
from dance) is common to, say, Tetris and most games - wouldn't
this also be a characteristic of narrative - which brings up
issues of goals, goal orientation, etc.?
[22:14]
<Haimish> I arrive late and am confused. Please tell me
why we need to define narrative for this discussion. (ducks)
[22:14]
<Espen> Andrew, people who think a boat is some kind of
car without wheels, have a problem.
[22:15]
Alan_Sondheim goes amphibious.
[22:15]
<Espen> By thinking of games in terms of narratives, we
miss the boat, so to speak.
[22:15]
<Alan_Sondheim> The hull thing? (sorry...).
[22:15]
<Andrew> So then build a jetski...
[22:16]
<Espen> Oh, they try that all right.
[22:16]
<Deena> What terms should we use when thinking about games?
[22:16]
vika tends to think of a narrative in terms of a game.
[22:16]
<Espen>Try game.
[22:16]
Deena wonders if the narratives are the hull or the wheel.
[22:16]
<Espen> Games are not narratives, they are games.
[22:16]
<Deena> Why do we play games?
[22:16]
<Deena> Why do we read narratives?
[22:17]
<Espen> Just as the vice versa is true.
[22:17]
<Alan_Sondheim> Back to Wittgenstein, then - how would
you define a game? Or is there any sort of overarching definition?
[22:17]
<Guy_Vardi> It is fun.
[22:17]
<Katherine> Is that the reason why definitions of these
terms is helpful? So that we can get a sense of expectations?
[22:17]
<Helen> Life is a game.
[22:17]
<Helen> But not always fun.
[22:17]
<Alan_Sondheim> Some games aren't fun at all. And life
isn't necessarily a game.
[22:17]
<Deena> Yes, I think we do come with a different set of
expectations to tetris, hypertexts, multimedia, narrative stories...
[22:17]
<Andrew> Unfortunately, you will have to call your work
something, before people are willing to try it (or try to sell
it).
[22:17]
<Espen> Yes.
[22:18]
<Alan_Sondheim> So perhaps the definition is intrinsically
tied into political economy...
[22:18]
<Helen> Andrew this is where we came in... we call it
what we expect the people who will read it will want it to be
called!
[22:18]
<Espen> Who decides what to call a thing.
[22:18]
<Andrew> Yeah that might work.
[22:18]
<Deena> Yes, we see games selling in millions, we borrow
game aspects into narrative, and we have fun zooming around.
[22:18]
<Andrew> Journalists.
[22:18]
<Helen> It's getting late, I'm not comprehensible.
[22:18]
<Alan_Sondheim> Those in power - Chomsky saying that a
language is a dialect with an army ...
[22:19]
Deena proposes setting up a naming convention similar to the
French watchdog commission on language.
[22:19]
<Espen> Not to mention humpty dumpty.
[22:19]
<Alan_Sondheim> We already have the W3 consortium...
[22:19]
Helen wonders if we could get a grant for a research project
on this to keep us all occupied for a decade or two.
[22:19]
<Alan_Sondheim> And all the RFCs.
[22:19]
Deena always wondered where humpty got the money to pay the
words on Saturday nights.
[22:19]
<Alan_Sondheim> Helen, what is this "this" ?
[22:19]
<Espen> Well, games are bigger than movies.
[22:20]
Deena wonders if people want to look into how things are called.
It is sort of like looking into making sausages of looking into
the American way of voting.
[22:20]
<Helen> Alan, exactly, we need to define it as our first
job!
[22:20]
<Andrew> But only a sliver of society plays games, but
everybody sees movies.
[22:20]
<Deena> What do we want out of playing games?
[22:20]
<Deena> What do we want out of seeing movies?
[22:20]
<Alan_Sondheim> Again it's a question of measure - how
is "bigger" ?
[22:20]
<Espen> Andrew, where do you get your stats?
[22:21]
<Andrew> Games are bigger than movies because teenagers
spend hundreds a year on games.
[22:21]
<Alan_Sondheim> WHAT DO WE WANT ?
[22:21]
<Haimish> A way to eat candy without everyone seeing us?
[22:21]
<Deena> Are we saying computer games, card games, sport
games?
[22:21]
<Espen> Not only teenagers.
[22:21]
Katherine doesn't agree with Andrew at all there. Wants him
to define "games" and ducks.
[22:21]
<Alan_Sondheim> Sure and Ring Around the Rosie as well.
[22:21]
<Helen> And EVERYBODY uses mobile phones (at least here
in the UK).
[22:21]
<Andrew> Not only teenagers, but I think mostly guys age
12-25.
[22:21]
<Alan_Sondheim> (Games don't have to have winners).
[22:21]
<Espen> Look, games are the dominant art form of our century.
[22:22]
<Espen> Like movies in the 20th.
[22:22]
<Deena> Thinks about games as varied as ring around the
rosy, bridge and D&D and shudders. What a too wide field.
[22:22]
<Alan_Sondheim> How so?
[22:22]
<Andrew> Interactive experiences will be the dominant
art form of the century...
[22:22]
<Haimish> Espen, I disagree about games and art. What
about advertising?
[22:22]
<Espen> Just wait and see.
[22:22]
<Deena> How are we defining art forms?
[22:22]
<Espen> Good point.
[22:22]
<vika> Espen, that was a good point above: what do you
mean by games? I'd assumed computer/video games, but that's
not a given, is it.
[22:22]
Deena wonders how much advertisements are games.
[22:22]
<Alan_Sondheim> Deena, this is why we should all look
at Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations again - he talks
about games as "families of usages" - that there is no specific
definition. Which is why this discussion keeps falling out and
running around amphibious...
[22:23]
<Deena> Right. We have no more defined games than we have
writing, hypertext, nonsequential or any other term we've been
tossing about.
[22:23]
<Alan_Sondheim> How can we define the dominant form eleven
months in? (Or one month behind, depending on the def?)
[22:23]
<Espen> Alan, Ludde had a good point, but the same could
be said for stories.
[22:23]
<Guy_Vardi> "Art form" is being defined by the
new form of arts and media. Which leads us back to hypertext
as a medium.
[22:23]
<Deena> Now I'm thinking about games as mediums and getting
even more muddled.
[22:23]
<Andrew> (I've been defining "games" as the pop-culture
definition of games, like adventure games, shooters, etc. For
example, I don't consider my work, Petz and Babyz, to be games).
[22:24]
<Alan_Sondheim> I think there are deep reasons we can't
define these - one might have to look at what's acceptable as
a definition, etc. etc. - there's a whole can of worms here.
[22:24]
<Espen> Sims?
[22:24]
<Deena> But, Andrew, I've heard petz described AS games...not
narrative...
[22:24]
<Andrew> Sims is very goal-oriented, as Will Wright readily
admits, so it's more of a game.
[22:24]
Deena retrieves the wormholes of definitions and tries to slip
through them.
[22:24]
<Andrew> But not everyone plays the Sims that way, I admit.
[22:24]
<Haimish> Petz? Is that those robot dogs things?
[22:25]
<Alan_Sondheim> We're all slipping through them.
[22:25]
<Deena> Andrew, please give the URL for petz
again.
[22:25]
<Espen> no, I mean, are petz a simulation rather than
a game?
[22:25]
<Andrew> Sure...http://www.petz.com
[22:25]
<Andrew> Um, I think of petz as "hanging out" with characters.
[22:25]
<R_Adams> My 11 yr old sits at his computer and plays
games only if there is nothing else to do; he'd prefer a snowball
fight.
[22:25]
<Deena> What is the difference between a simulation (D&D)
and a game?
[22:25]
<Andrew> it's not a game, nor a strong narrative; there
is emergent narrative however.
[22:25]
<Espen> D&D is a game, Deena.
[22:26]
<Deena> Right, and it is a simulation. You simulate the
action.
[22:26]
<vika> Is D&D a game for the game master, or a narrative?
[22:26]
<R_Adams>The dominant artform out here on the west coast
of Canada is still watercolours.
[22:26]
<Espen> Yes.
[22:26]
<Andrew> But we try to encourage emergent narrative.
[22:26]
<Alan_Sondheim> But then... on a MUD... it need not be
a game at all... but a state of mind, a situation or situations.
[22:26]
Deena is sneakily getting to the point where there are no differences
between games, simulation, and narrative again.
[22:26]
<Alan_Sondheim> Randy, I prefer hyper-watercolours, click
on a tree ...
[22:26]
<Andrew> Perhaps there are "pure" extremes, and interesting
intermixings in between.
[22:27]
<Espen> Only if you ignore theory, Deena.
[22:27]
<R_Adams> ;-)
[22:27]
Deena snubs her nose at the theory again.
[22:27]
<Andrew> When film came out was it considered a mixture
of theater and photography?
[22:27]
<Alan_Sondheim> But there aren't "pure" extremes - for
every definition of "game" you could find a "pure" exception.
That's the point. We're talking way out of context/phenomenology
here.
[22:27]
Barry waving goodbye.
[22:27]
<Alan_Sondheim> Andrew, no, at least not by the audiences.
[22:28]
<Barry> It's been interesting listening to you all, even
if I've found it a little baffling at times G'night everyone.
[22:28]
<Espen> Alan, game is not a theoretical concept.
[22:28]
<Espen> I aim to baffle.
[22:28]
<Deena> But, Espen, what theoretical concepts ARE we talking
about?
[22:29]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen, I'm not sure because I'm not sure
what a theoretical - as opposed to other (x) - concept is.
[22:29]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'd say that "game" is a loose association
of concepts, that's about it.
[22:29]
<Espen> A theoretical concept is grounded in analytical
reasoning. You should be able to agree what it defines.
[22:30]
<Alan_Sondheim> Reasoning from what? If one begins with
a taxonomic notion, then I'd agree with you.
[22:30]
<Espen> The problem arises when we jump to concepts.
[22:31]
<Alan_Sondheim> But it's the lack of definitions that,
in fact or fiction, would create the content of an other discourse...
[22:31]
<Alan_Sondheim>That might in the long run be more fruitful.
[22:32]
<Espen> We should not assume that we all have the same
goals, Alan.
[22:33]
<Alan_Sondheim> I don't assume that in the slightest,
or that we necessarily have goals at all - that they might be
imaginary, a posteriori, absented, etc. -
[22:33]
<Espen> I am sure you have goals, although many people
may seem not to have any.
[22:34]
<Deena> What are your goals, Espen?" asks with an evil
gleam.
[22:34]
<Alan_Sondheim> Of course that's true, but not for all
situations...
[22:34]
<vika> Goals, as in, a specific purpose with which we
joined this discussion?
[22:34]
<Espen> I just think that I have goals different from
artists. What motivates our interest in this topic. And that
may lead to a kind of conflict.
[22:35]
Deena subsides to just a moral neutral gleam in response to
Alan's impassioned pleas
[22:35]
<Alan_Sondheim> From all artists? Artists don't have similar
goals at all necessarily - and for that matter some of us write
theory as well -
[22:35]
Katherine goes to mull these thoughts over and do laundry- not
wholly unrelated tasks.
[22:36]
<Espen> Broadly speaking, of course.
[22:36]
<Espen> But that is my experience.
[22:36]
<Deena> I think the goals are different--I want to understand
theory so I can refute it in my writing...
[22:36]
<Espen> So do I actually.
[22:36]
<Alan_Sondheim> Could you elaborate on this - on the kind
of conflict, on the different goals.
[22:36]
Deena is shocked at the honest revelation, but... wants to know
about Espen's goals.
[22:36]
<Alan_Sondheim> For me, art making and theory making are
different interwoven practices ...
[22:36]
<Helen> Definitions definitions why don't we just go away
and WRITE (or play games...if that's what you like).
[22:37]
<Espen> As a theorist, I am not wearing two hats.
[22:37]
<Espen> Good point Helen.
[22:37]
<Deena> What are the goals in theory making?
[22:38]
<Alan_Sondheim> Is theory that well-defined? When I look
at your work or Lingis for example, I read it on any number
of levels...
[22:38]
<Espen> For me, to come up with the best description possible.
[22:38]
<Deena> Why are we describing the games, writing, etc.?
[22:38]
<Alan_Sondheim> Espen, could you elaborate?
[22:39]
<Espen> If I was an artist, I would somehow be hampered
by my artistic investments.
[22:39]
<Deena> Why do theorists need to describe the phenomena?
[22:40]
<Espen> Raison d'etre.
[22:40]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'm not sure what you mean; some of us
see our work as also descriptive (as artists) in this regard
- and investments in any form of cultural practice are intense,
difficult to describe...
[22:40]
<Espen> Yes, I agree.
[22:40]
<Espen> Art can certainly be a mode of investigation.
And a very good one.
[22:41]
<Alan_Sondheim> or modes... again, it's almost impossible
to give coherence to widely-varying phenomena ...
[22:41]
<Deena> Lemme get this straight. Theorists describe phenomena
because they are theorists and that what theoriets do.
[22:41]
<Espen> More or less, yes.
[22:42]
<Alan_Sondheim> When I read Glas, I'm not sure what the
discourse is, for example - literature/art/theory - and working
across boundaries/borders questions those, is part of the fascination.
[22:42]
Andrew wonders if Deena hopes they do it to help the artists?
:-)
[22:42]
<vika> Deena, I would hope that theorists would also describe
the phenomena that they've had a chance to put into practice...
[22:42]
<Alan_Sondheim> ...praxis...
[22:42]
<Deena> OK and we read theory to get the descriptions
of the praxis?
[22:42]
<Espen> That would be a nice side effect, Andrew.
[22:43]
vika reads a moderate amount of theory in order to be able to
explain what it is she does to others who have nothing to do
with the field, with the hopeful purpose of getting them interested
in reading it. PLUS, self-education. But - selective. Because,
I agree, goals are different.
[22:44]
<Alan_Sondheim> I'm going to sign off. This discussion
has honestly fascinated me - I want to thank everyone, Espen
especially -
[22:45]
<Espen>Thank you Alan!
[22:45]
<vika> Deena, why do you read theory? I have sensed an,
uh, aversion to it from your corner. :)
[22:45]
Andrew's work nags at him to get back to it, and so he waves
goodbye...
[22:45]
<R_Adams>Thousands of miles and dozens of fingers: hard
to be right on time ;-)
[22:45]
<Deena> Vika, I think that is a great reason to read theory.
It certainly makes more sense than my reason, which has always
been to sabotage the theory in practice.
[22:45]
<Espen> It is probably time to go for me too, bye!
[22:45]
<Deena> Right, it is pretty late. Thanks again, this has
been amazing!
[22:46]
<Deena> I like theory, I just don't like the "this is
the way it is attitude" sometimes...
[22:46]
<Andrew>Thanks Espen.
[22:46]
<Espen> My pleasure!
[22:46]
vika gets going as well.
[22:46]
vika nods at Deena, yesyesyes!
[22:46]
<Haimish> Goodbye, y'all. Thanks especially to Espen.
[22:46]
Deena hands out night caps so we can think about all of this
and add to the ELO bulletin board later.
[22:46]
Andrew has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:46]
Haimish has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:47]
Espen has quit IRC (QUIT: )
[22:47]
vika has quit IRC (QUIT: Leaving )
[22:47]
<Deena> What a chat, eh!
[22:47]
<Helen>That was intense!
[22:47]
<R_Adams> Who's really left here; let's have a roll call.
[22:47]
<Deena> Yep. Intense.
[22:48]
R_Adams climbs down from wall.
[22:49]
<R_Adams> So, what have we all learned...and will there
be a test.
[22:49]
<M_B> I can't eat these Cyber cookies.
[22:49]
<Deena> No tests, we'll rest for the hols.
[22:49]
<Deena> Bye all!
--Session
Close: Sun Dec 17 22:49:56 2000
