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Chat Transcript:
November 18th 2001
Collaborating with ELO, trAce, the fineArt forum, and ISEA
Sunday
November 18th (in
LinguaMOO)
This
transcript produced by Deena Larsen
Straight
to log missing introduction
Converging electronic art and lit Electronic literature is
rapidly becoming indistinguishable from art.
- What's
inside art and literature?
- How
are these fields merging?
- How
does electronic art and literature bring out what is inside
people?
-
How do we work with identity and spirituality?
- What
are the symbolic languages emerging on the net?
-
How can we further art and literature communication and community?
Our
guest is Nisar
Keshvani from Singapore. A digital media lecturer at Ngee
Ann Polytechnic, Nisar is also editor-in-chief of
fineArt forum, a 14-year-old art & technology news service.
He is a trained Internet journalist, web developer, educator and
new media specialist. He has worked for various foreign magazines
and newspapers since 1993. He has lectured in online journalism
at Australia's Queensland University of Technology, and researched
the Internet's impact on journalists, new media technologies,
media convergence, and WWW content management. (Contact him at
nisar-at-keshvani.com.)
About
fAf:
fineArt forum (ISSN No: 1442-4894), is the longest running arts
magazine on the Internet. The 14-year-old international news service
specialises in new technologies in the arts and design. Our monthly
email digest goes out to around 1700 subscribers and about 7 500
readers visit our website on a regular basis. The majority of
our readers are professionals in the arts and design world. We
also act as a news feed to several magazines and agencies like
Christie's and JP Getty Foundation.
Our
second guest is Cynthia Rubin, representing the International
Society for Electronic Art.
The
following is a list of related links to accompany your reading.
--
Start log: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:00:22 pm CST
Nisar
and Robert_Nagle_ quietly enter.
Deena says, "Hi Robert. "
Deena says, "Good morning Nisar!"
Nisar says, "Hi Deena. Yawn. It's really early in the morning
here. 4:30 am. "
Deena says, "OUCH. I am really sorry about that. I had to do
one of these from Japan at that time and it did hurt. Thank
you thank you thank
you for your dedication:)"
Deena serves Nisar a HUGe cup of black coffee and express-o
Nisar says, "Hahah that's mighty cool. "
Deena gives Nisar a brain opener--similar to a can opener.
Nisar says, "I hope I deliver to your expectations. This is
my first online thingee. . . . . "
Deena says, "You will do beautifully. Thanks so much :)"
Nisar says, "Thank me, when its over . . . . - see whether you
are satisfied. *sheepish grin*"
Deena says, "Your enthusiasm and your obvious expertise on the
FineArt
forum is more than enough to carry you. . . "
Nisar says, "Thank you . . . :)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Testing. Is my microphone on?"
Deena says, "HI Robert. Read you loud and clear. "
Deena says, "Just go with the flow. . . If I or anyone else
ask anything you don't want to answer, ignore it. . . this is
like a dinner party conversation more than an interview. . .
"
Nisar says, "Aaaah. that's a good way to look at it. "
Deena says, "BTW, Nisar, the conversations get a bit convoluted.
When I edit the log, I put stuff together so it flows. "
Deena says, "So don't worry"
Nisar says, "Kool. That sounds good. . . . "
Nisar says, "Can everyone in here see everything that's written?"
Deena says, "Right. Everyone sees all the conversations. "
Deena says, "Then people respond to previous points, keep typing
on new points, it gets fun. "
Deena says, "An art form in itself"
Nisar says, "Okie. . It's gonna be baptism by fire ;)"
Anja quietly enters.
Deena says, "Hi Anja. How is life, your thesis, et. al?"
Anja says, "Hi"
Anja says, "Hi Deena, the thesis is done. Life's in stasis before
changing jobs at last. Good to read you again. "
Deena says, "Robert, what have you been up to in Texas? Are
you going to the ELO
symposium in April? or the ht02
in June"
Helen arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters.
Helen says, "Hello Deena, Robert, Anja, Nisar"
Deena hands round more champagne and eggnog and other magical
warming drinks.
Nisar says, "Allo Helen. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "That the Helen from UK?"
Anja says, "Hi Helen"
Helen says, "Hi, Yes, I'm Helen from trAce."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "All right. I am RJ Nagle, from Hypertext
2000"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I sat next to you once or twice, I believe.
"
Deena says, "This is old home week!"
Helen says, "My goodness. . . that was a while ago now! Did
you go to Hypertext 2001?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, wanted to. . . . "
Helen says, "Me too. . . but neither money nor time. . . . "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "The timing wasn't right. Actually, I ended
up going to Europe to see my girlfriend a month or two before.
Couldn't do
both. "
Deena says, "Nisar, we all go to hypertext conferences which
deal with computing and other aspects of hypertext, including
lit."
Helen says, "Did Cyberflats come off Deena?"
Deena says, "Nope, I was too ill and preoccupied to do it. .
. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Deena, that statement makes me laugh. I
use that excuse often. "
Helen says, "Come to Incubation2
next July Rob!"
Deena says, "One of the things we talked about in HT00--June
of 2000. Can it be that long ago? was art and literature converging."
Nisar says, "Oooh thanks for that Deena. Sounds like a class
reunion from here. With me as an observer"
Loki93c arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Loki, we are chatting but will get started pretty
quick."
Deena hands round more warm bubbly and definitely alcoholic
drinks.
Loki93c says, "Hello"
Helen looks for the margaritas to remember San Antonio by. .
.
Deena hands round nostalgic margaritas, ten gallon hats, and
remember the Alamo pins for all those who were--and weren't--at
ht00.
Helen says, "Did you see - the HT00 domain turned into a porno
site? I got SUCH a shock!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "!!!"
Deena says, "Oh no Helen how HORRIBLE!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Well, the porn sites are the popular art
galleries. I guess the occasion of ht00. org becoming a porn
site is a sign of how intertwined art and literature can become.
"
Deena says, "Of course, Deena. com is one as well. . . encroaching
epidemic. . . "
Helen says, "Oh no, Deena, how horrid for you -- I think they
like to pick up domains that had been used by a lot of people."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "What is incubation2?"
Helen says, "Incubation
is our second conference on Writing and the internet that we
hold in Nottingham UK. Great fun last time in 2000, very international"
Deena says, "Right, which is our topic today. . . how art and
lit are combining. . . "
Anja arrives.
Deena says, "I think that is so true Helen, they do tend to
pick up great domains at cheap prices :)"
Helen says, "I don't think you can separate the two terms on
the Web / in new media."
Deena says, "Our guest tonight is Nisar from the FineArt
forum. . . "
Deena says, "FineArt
forum is the longest running arts magazine on the Internet.
Highly regarded by the international professional new media
arts and technology communities, FineArt
forum helps to maintain the high profile position that Australia
occupies in this important field of the arts. "
Deena says, "We wanted to look at ways that art and lit are
combining on the web and in electronic realms. . . "
Helen says, "And Paul Brown is on the Incubation committee as
it happens, and also involved in FineArt
forum!"
Deena says, "And brainstorm ways to get our communities together."
Deena says, "Ahhh all the lovely connections!"
Deena says, "Nisar, could you tell us about FineArt
forum?"
Nisar says, "Thanks for the delightful introduction Deena."
Deena hands round more warm drinks and cool margaritas and art
viewing gallery glasses.
Deena applauds Nisar loudly for getting up at 4 am to join us
and admires his dedication to the cause!!!
Nisar says, "Sure. well FineArt
forum is an e newsletter that originated in the US in 1987"
Helen says, "A venerable institution indeed!"
Deena thinks that that is about 187 years in internet years.
. .
Nisar says, "By Ray Lauzanna and it was based in Mississippi
State University till 1992. "
Symbolic Guest arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Symbolic_Guest, we are talking with Nisar about
the FineArt
forum and ways to converge electronic lit and art"
Nisar says, "Paul Brown was on a professorship there and brought
it back with him to Australia. "
Helen says, "Ah, I thought he got around!"
Nisar says, "Its now based in Queensland Uni of Tech. "
Nisar says, "I became involved with FineArt
forum since 1998. "
Nisar says, "And Paul is the editor, took on the exec editor
role. Thanks to an Australia council grant, we now have an ozzie
editor. and I now work from Singapore. "
Deena says, "In the 4 years you have been involved, how have
you seen art changing on the net?"
Nisar says, "Well it's a constantly changing field. "
Helen says, "Truly international!"
Nisar says, "And it's grown. We are still making threads. "
Deena says, "Anja, Helen, Robert, Loki, guests, how do you guys
see trends in art and lit?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I think the reason this might be the case
is that literature alone is boring. People prefer pictures.
And pictures themselves are boring. We are too dim-witted to
give to a picture a narrative. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Humans are naturally very lazy beings.
"
Nisar says, "Yes indeed so. "
Anja
says, "Strangely, in Germany, there seems to be a trend that
wants net-lit to be text only."
Helen says, "Really Anja? say more. . . "
Anja says, "There's the Netzliteratur-movement
and right now they seem to prefer lit to be text only - Karlsruhe
is a whole other story"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, my god, buzzwords I've never heard
of !"
Deena says, "Yeah, what is Netzliteratur-movement?"
Anja says, "Netzliteratur is a mailing-list dedicated to, well
literature on the net. The community is pretty small round here"
Anja says, "I'm not really close to Netzliteratur. "
Deena says, "Anja, yet the Karlsruhe DMZ shows so much intertwining
of physical art, electronic art and text. . . "
Anja says, "Karlsruhe has a lot of international stuff"
Deena says, "Ahh. . . I hadn't realized that, Anja. "
Deena says, "Anja, what are the motives behind moving to text
only in lit. . . "
Anja says, "Deena, I am not at all for limiting digital literature
to alphanumerics."
Deena says, "Yeah, me neither Anja. Just wondered about the
motivation behind it. Maybe a purer aesthetic or something?"
Anja says, "As I said - I'm not close to the text-only guys,
I really can't say."
Deena says, "Yeah, I'll have to have them on a chat to grill
them, Anja. Please send their URL, email"
Anja says, "Deena, I just made a note . . . "
Deena says, "Thanks Anja"
Nisar
says, "The thing I find most intriguing is only have a 14 inch
monitor to send your message/concept/idea. And its really hard
work. "
Deena says, "Yes, Nisar, how does the 14 inch monitor limit
the message/concept/idea?"
Helen says, "Ooh, do you still have 14 inch? we are moving from
15 to 17 inch here now, I don't think less than 15 inch mm"
Nisar says, "Well. I have 1 14 inch. But that's one of the challenges
FineArt
forum constantly faces. Trying to reach out to everyone
out there. "
Deena hand round 50 inch monitors to all.
Deena says, "Nisar, how is electronic art reaching everyone
out there?"
Nisar says, "Not as well as it could. It's still quite a new
art form. "
Deena says, "Robert, do you see elit giving pictures a narrative?"
Nisar says, "Like Robert says, people prefer pictures. "
Deena says, "How do the pictures help present the idea/concept?
and how does text influence pictures?"
Anja says, "Pictures - that requires a different sort of literacy
most of us didn't grow up with"
Nisar says, "From what I see, the human interface sometimes
is essential. . . because you sometimes need a human intro before
someone gets real
keen to understand your work. "
Loki93c says, "True"
Deena says, "Nisar, how do you see everyone gaining a graphic
literacy--a common way to interpret art and images?"
Deena says, "Nisar, how does that human interface work?"
Nisar says, "Well. I think the way to go is to look within your
environment. . . . and what's close to you. Culture is the way
to go. Most can
relate or are intrigued by it. . . "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Pardon my sexism, here, but as a male I
prefer to see the female in a story. I want to see a face. As
nice as stories are, the natural tendency is to prefer a story
loaded with extra's (multimedia effects) to minimalist presentations.
"
Nisar says, "Geez. this is hard work - my first moo session
you see ;)"
Deena hands Nisar a handkerchief to wipe his brow. .
Helen says, "Take your time Nisar. . . . "
Nisar says, "Thanks everyone. takes a sip of water. *pant pant*"
Deena hands round Gatorade and pocari sweat and sport water.
Deena
says, "All, do you think we have a cultural or graphic literacy?
How do we rely on this as writers and artists?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "And with ballets and expressionist paintings,
I prefer subtitles, because I want to know what a picture is
about. "
Nisar says, "Sometimes we forget that we need to touch the baser
instinct of everyone?? How to get the message to everyone -
if that's the intention that is. "
Deena says, "How does art touch the baser instincts in all?
Can art transcend culture, text, expectations?"
Margaret arrives. Helen says, "Hi Margaret" Deena says, "Hi
Margaret, we are looking at art and eliterature and how they
work together."
Helen says, "Nisar, you're right about reaching people - I have
started to write for the newbies, for people who have maybe
not read new media before, to show how it works and how interesting
it can be. I think we need to build an audience, and we need
to push the boundaries AND make routed across new media work
for the beginner."
Nisar says, "Is there much eliterature going on from where everyone
comes from?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "To Nisar: not really. "
Nisar says, "Helen. Can u tell us more about your work?"
Nisar says, "Robert: what is your opinion?"
Deena says, "Well, there is the
ELO and trAce
and some good conferences like Incubation
and the ELO
symposium, but honestly, eliterature is pretty much in its
beginning stages right now. . .But it is amazing to see how
elit is working with pictures (thinking of Water~Water~Water
and Marjorie Luesebrink's Book
of Going Forth by Day. . . "
Loki93c says, "Were still at the silent movie stage."
Deena says, "Loki, I have to agree. But we are also experimenting
and having a lot of fun before settling into --horrors--a commercial
genre."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "If anything, I think that most people surf
the internet for news and humor, and chatting, not stories.
That could easily change. "
Anja says, "I'm not a very visual person but I always have the
impression that text dominates images when there are any"
Nisar says, "Its great to hear this. .
"Nisar
says, "Is there any conference going on in Nov. - Dec. in Europe
in this field?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, always a conference."
Deena says, "Hmmm. I don't think so Nisar. Most of the upcoming
ones are in the states, but Incubation
is in the UK."
Nisar says, "When is incubation?"
Deena says, "In July 2002."
Symbolic_Guest
says, "Hi - I am wondering what people mean by content - what
is meaning- "
Deena says, "Good question, symbol. What do we mean by content,
and how is content changed when text merges with art?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Content can be defined in terms of its
deficiency. Content has to do with what we are primarily looking
for in a work of art. "
Helen says, "I linked one of my pieces in my recent Web
Warp and Weft with the cardigan I wear whenever I demonstrate
it -- very visual AND tactile (but the project IS about textiles
and the Web!)"
Deena sees Helen as spilling out of the net and into real time.
. .
Robert_Nagle_ says, "We say, well I liked all the special effects
in that sci-fi film, but the story sucked. The story is the
content."
Nisar says, "Which film do u refer to Robert?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Oh, I'm talking generically. "
Helen says, "Robert, yes, art is nothing without content --
lit even more so"
Deena says, "Yes, how do we get ideas, stories, meaning across
in both text and art?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "But what if the content that we are looking
for is ambiguity? this is what visual artists get to - perhaps
not so easy for you literature people."
Loki93c says, "Well, you can write as ambivalent."
Margaret says, "I agree but I do think sound is important. I
am working on that at the moment"
Deena says, "Loki, what do you mean by ambivalent?"
Loki93c says, "One can write a narrative leaving the reader
2 decide on the characters intent"
Deena says, "All sound and no fury. . . all pictures and no
meaning. . . all words and no story. . . "
Anja says, "Ah, always story and content . . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Ambiguity and ambivalence are not the
same - visual artists play with the fact that imagery in the
real world is always changing (you see the moon in the distance
at night and then it turns out to be a street light)"
Helen says, "New media makes it easier to write about ambiguity
-- I have an online novel that has ambiguity at the centre.
It wouldn't work
as a print linear sequence."
Margaret says, "May I show you what I am working on Deena? It
is definitely story"
Deena says, "Sure Margaret, is it up on the web? or do you want
to email it to textra<at>chisp. net"
Editor's Note: This is Black
Annis.
Robert_Nagle_
says, "In college, we were taught to appreciate characterization,
styles, and to regard the story as not the main reason for enjoying
a novel. funny, as time goes by, the mechanics of lit tends
to bore me. "
Deena says, "Nisar, what trends have you seen in the electronic
art field since 1998?"
Nisar says, "For one, it's emerging. You can see this from the
support eliterature now gets. "
Deena says, "Thanks Nisar for the support:) All, have you seen
support for elit growing?"
Nisar says, "Everyone here is up to interesting stuff. . amazing.
"
Deena says, "Oh Nisar, we are a fun group of folks around here
:) maybe we can do an article for FineArt
forum;)"
Nisar says, "Sure thing Deena. I would love that to happen.
"
Deena says, "How do you think the appreciating art and lit will
be taught in future colleges?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "In the future there will be colleges? An
incredible thought!"
Deena says, "Yeah, I keep assuming we will get over our current
difficulties. Optimist that I am ;)"
Helen says, "Online colleges like the one I'm helping to build
:)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Online learning communities. . . . oh.
Yes, those will be around, to be sure!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Talk about what you mean by ambiguity a
little. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Guess the ambiguity is directed at me
- this is Cynthia Rubin - I think that I logged in wrong so
my name is into showing
- anyway-"
Nisar
says, "Hey Cynthia."
Nisar says, "I know u. . "
Deena says, "Hi all, I'd like to introduce our other guest,
Cynthia Rubin from the ISEA.
"
Deena is relieved to unmask her other chat guest of honor. .
.
Robert_Nagle_ says, "ISEA?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "The lesson of the abstract expressionists
is that we can create spatial tension on a flat surface, that
we can break picture plane developed by the Renaissance painters
- (hi Nisar)"
Deena says, "Founded in the Netherlands in 1990, ISEA
is an international non-profit organization dedicated to the
promotion and development
of the electronic arts. ISEA's
membership and collaborators consist of a wide range of individuals
and institutions involved in the creative, theoretical and technological
aspects of the electronic arts. "
Deena says, "Cynthia, could you tell us about the ISEA,
and where it is going and what it is up to?"
Helen says, "Hi Cynthia, love ISEA!"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "International Society for Elephant Administration?"
Anja says, "It's late here, so bye for now."
Helen says, "Bye Anja, sorry u can't stay"
Deena says, "Anja, thanks so much for coming!"
The housekeeper arrives to remove Anja.
Symbolic_Guest says, "Great to hear that ISEA
is loved - and now we are working directly with FineArt
forum;)"
Deena says, "How can we work more closely together?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "You mean with ISEA?"
Nisar says, "Sure thing Deena. I would love that to happen.
"!"
Nisar says, "U betcha. . ;)"
Helen says, "OK, what are you doing? Together I mean!"
Deena
says, "How can we form alliances between ELO,
trAce
and other lit groups and ISEA,
FineArt
forum and other art groups?"
Helen says, "Yes, Deena, exactly."
Nisar says, "Sharing of information and content is a start?"
Helen says, "We have Paul Brown on our conference committee,
that's one thing -- we are trying to look beyond the word --
last year we had Stelarc and Scanner as keynotes"
Symbolic_Guest says, "An alliance would be great - Nisar has
done a great job of helping us share information - now we need
to share ideas."
Helen says, "We need to work more closely together -- artists
and writers"
Nisar says, "All art groups are doing amazing stuff. If there
is a way to connect and combine and share with each other that
would be excellent."
Deena says, "Right, let's brainstorm some ways of connecting
and combining. . . "
Nisar says, "Oh yes. That would be good. "
Deena says, "Our fields are merging, and the boundaries between
art and lit are growing very faint indeed. "
Loki93c says, "Line failed"
Deena says, "Welcome back Loki"
Loki93c says, "Nice 2 b back"
Deena says, "Maybe a joint venture? A symposium showing where
art and lit are joining?"
Nisar says, "One challenge FineArt
forum faces is the task of finding varied information. And
what's happening around the world. And also spotting artists
and writers to feature."
Deena says, "Yeah, Nisar, we have the same problem! I subscribe
to netnews, rhizome, ELO, trAce,
etc. but still can't keep up."
Symbolic_Guest says, "We had a panel at ISEA
1995 on new narratives - -it was so successful that a book is
coming out of it."
Deena says, "Great. Could you tell me the URL Cynthia?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I can look for the URL - Martin Rieser
is the editor - the panel was in Montreal, and we actually put
people together
who did not know each other"
Helen says, "Photographers, performance artists, all sorts"
Helen says, "And there are the programmers of course. . . .
. Computer programmers who make our art work technically."
Deena says, "How can we keep up in a field where so much is
happening?"
Deena says, "Or excuse me, so many combining fields"
Helen says, "Was that the panel in Manchester?"
Deena says, "Helen, the programme for what?"
Robert_Nagle_
says, "Maybe there should be a rule that all writers should
be required to be married to someone in another genre."
Deena says, "Robert, wanna set up a matchmaker service for that?"
Deena says, "You could make some money there ;)"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "You know that probably wouldn't be hard...Marriage
of convenience. "
Helen says, "Marriage of convenience -- wonder if the URL's
gone?"
Deena
says, "Yeah, we need a collaborator database, at the very least--who
can do what, who is interested in what. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "That would be great - finding collaborators
is so hard "
Nisar says, "Deena. Most orgs have listings. But the problem
is having a comprehensive one no?"
Deena says, "Maybe something like. . . name, previous works,
interests, skills, interested in working on projects such as.
. . "
Deena says, "Can FineArt
forum or ISEA
set up a database like that?"
Helen says, "The knack is in finding the keywords to describe
things for people working in different fields."
Deena says, "Yes, Helen, trAce
has a few keywords from the trAce
online competition. . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "ISEA
can sponsor someone to do a data-base - we have no money, but
we let other groups use our name to look for funds."
Nisar
says, "Would it be possible to keep in touch with the crowd
here via email?"
Deena says, "Like a jam session. . ."
Deena says, "Good question Nisar, we can provide emails. . .
"
Helen says, "Nisar, you should join ELO and trAce
-- they're free, and get the newsletters"
Deena says, "I don't have Loki, or Roberts. . . "
Loki93c says, Loki93c<at>cybercide. co. uk
Nisar says, "That would be great Deena. emails is a good idea.
"
Deena says, "Ok, I will set up an email so we can email each
other. . ."
Nisar says, "Thanks Deena. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I guess person-to-person interactions are
more important for collaboration. "
Symbolic_Guest says, "I don't know if person to person is necessary
if people can meet at some point "
Deena says, "Robert, yes. How do we get person to person interactions
through these different fields?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Just as online matchmaking rarely works
out, it's maybe a little optimistic to believe that one can
collaborate with
those one doesn't know. On the other hand, maintaining prior
contacts can be facilitated by online networking. Especially
because these are probably noncommercial collaborations."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Think about the online story "The
Unknown. "
Deena says, "Right, Robert, we are all doing this for the love
of our art and sacrificing for it. . . good to keep in mind.
"
Symbolic_Guest
says, "How do we determine similar interests? Are we back to
content?"
Deena says, "Great question Cynthia. I think we are back to
content. . and form. . . which is like content."
Helen says, "A workspace -- we are applying for funding for
this kind of thing -- but it takes years"
Deena says, "How can we facilitate online networking and keep
up in these fields?"
Helen says, "We were talking about this very thing at Net. Work
Day last weekend -- a face to face meeting"
Nisar says, "FineArt
forum can do the same. . . we are constantly looking out
for new projects and ideas. "
Deena says, "Can we set up a face to face? an interdisciplinary
conference?"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "I could see That project put out and allowing
a group of people to add to it. Maybe each person could perform
a different function. "
Deena says, "Or work within an existing conference?"
Helen says, "An online collaboration space where people could
dabble and find out about the work of the people they might
want to go away and
work with"
Deena says, "Robert, That would be great. "
Deena says, "Yes, and there is software for online collaboration--Groove,
others. "
Robert_Nagle_ says, "It's amazing How much "Helping collaboration"
is possible through bulletin boards. But not really "Creative
work."
Loki93c says, "Why not a web cam meeting? why does it have 2
be in the Here & Hard? we work in cyberspace after all."
Symbolic_Guest says, "There is still the possibility to this
in Japan at next year's ISEA
- the call for proposals has just gone out."
Deena says, "Sure, could we do a webcam meeting within the ISEA
for networking with lit folks and art folks?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - this would be a great proposal."
Helen says, "Again, it IS a strand at Incubation.
We expect Scanner back again, for example, he is working in
sound."
Deena says, "Cynthia, what is the URL for the CFP for ISEA?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Call for ISEA
is at: http://www.ISEA.jp/E/index.
html"
Loki93c says, "I'm amazed we still bother to travel when we
can internet"
Deena says, "Terrific. Helen, do you have the URL for Incubation?
Could we make That strand known in the art community as well
as the lit
community?"
Helen says, "With FineArt
forum, ELO,
ISEA and
trAce
we should be able to get something rolling. . . . . apply for
funds even."
Robert_Nagle_ says, "You know this sounds crazy. But having
audio can make a difference. Audio for chatting and forums.
"
Helen says, "trAce
has an experimental sound bulletin board"
Nisar says, "Yes indeed - Helen. This is possible. "
Loki93c says, "We should do a lot more of this stuff online
and a lot less airporting"
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Airporting?!! I love that gerund!"
Deena
says, "Yeah, we'll need someone to write the proposal, get the
grants, do the CFP. . . where can we get volunteers to help
out?"
Deena says, "Audio meetings at the physical conferences help
a great deal. Maybe we can set up at Incubation
and ISEA
and ELO symposium conferences."
Deena says, "Who wants to put together a proposal? And what
would we include?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Forming a group that then meets at different
conferences is a good idea "
Deena says, "Yeah, a central group that could be a clearinghouse
for all the news, collaborations, etc. . . "
Helen says, "Yes, ELO
symposium in April, Incubation
in July and ISEA
in October -- good spread across next year."
Deena says, "Would be good to have a continuity at ALL these
conferences."
Loki93c says, "And updated in real time at every conference?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "And then eventually many people would
meet - as through the years many visual artists meet up at various
places."
Deena says, "Right. updated in real time and meeting in real
time with different folks."
Helen says, "I can't go to ISEA
-- I am teaching at Arvon
that week :("
Helen says, "But let's link in the Arvon
students!!!"
Deena says, "Helen, that would be a perfect way to do the Arvon
chat next year. . . to link to one of these conferences."
Symbolic_Guest says, "What where is Arvon?"
Helen says, "The Arvon
Foundation runs the most prestigious residential writing courses
in the UK. I teach Writing for the Internet there on a hill
in
Yorkshire: Ted Hughes old home just up from Sylvia Plath's grave"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Wow - it would be great to link up with
Arvon."
Nisar says, "Where is Arvon
based?"
Helen says, "Arvon
has one house in West Yorkshire and one in Devon, soon one in
Shropshire."
Helen says, "It's coming together"
Deena
cheers the connections and hands round ribbons of enthusiasm
Loki93c says, "Some of us would need 2 be there on line. Rather
than physically."
Deena says, "Yeah, we would have to set up an online moo connection."
Deena says, "Would ISEA,
ELO, trAce,
FineArt
forum be able to get a group together to come up with a
proposal and get it to all these conferences?"
Deena says, "I think the theme could be just collaboration,
networking and merging in these fields. . . show what is new,
How people are getting
together, and what the possibilities for future collaboration
are. . . "
Nisar says, "I am sure setting up a group. Maintaining interest
and making the project happen - is the key ;)"
Margaret says, "But for serious online collaborative work you
need an application with one common screen and several user
dedicated ones.
Otherwise one person dominates, which is not true collaboration."
Deena says, "Yeah, this is just to spark the beginning of a
flame of collaboration. . "
Helen says, "We can all be the founding committee, co-opt others.
We have a mailing list core right here. . . ."
Loki93c says, "E-merge-Ent"
Deena says, "Right and trAce
has a great bulletin board system in place."
Deena
says, "We have a lot of resources here. . . "
Nisar says, "FineArt
forum can get the msg out . . "
Helen says, "Yes. . . "
Loki93c says, "I'm a reseller, I have loads of webspace we can
use anyway."
Symbolic_Guest says, "We can link from the ISEA
web site"
Nisar says, "And ISEA
JP can be host?"
Helen says, "We have everything we need then. . . . "
Deena says, "University of Virginia has webspace too--we can
coordinate with Loki :)"
Deena says, "So How will we keep this thread going?"
Loki93c says, "Neat, I can offer bulletin boards space etc no
problem"
Helen says, "We will link too"
Nisar says, "Would be it be possible to everyone to intro themselves
-- briefly?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "We are moving our main ISEA
web site to the Netherlands - we should have room - but it would
be better to link to
another site"
Deena says, "Great. Can you set up a bulletin board/database?"
Deena says, "Or do we know folks who can?"
Deena says, "We are looking at a bulletin board for announcements,
news and then a meeting space within the 3 conferences, incubation,
ELO,
and ISEA?"
Loki93c says, "I can yes"
Deena says, "Terrific! claps Loki on the back :)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Annick Bureau started a data base several
years ago for visual and sound artists called IDEA - it would
be good to involve her, and Joel Chaddabee from EMF as well."
Deena says, "Right, Loki, working with Joel and Annick may save
some time and we won't have to reinvent the wheel. . . "
Helen says, "Incubation
already has its own board. . . "
Loki93c says, "Can u give me about ten days 2 set it up/"
Deena says, "Yes, maybe we can just expand that database. .
. "
Deena says, "Can you send me their email addresses, Cynthia?"
Loki93c says, "True Helen, but its massive"
Helen says, "There are lots of people and lists to send announcements
too -- we can collaborate on that. . . post details to the bulletin
board as a central point"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Sure - Annick might even help work on
this."
Loki93c says, "This could just be for this."
Deena says, "ELO has a database of electronic works, we can
probably get info from there, too. . "
Helen says, "This needs a list of words, of terms, of descriptors
that people can use when seeking collaborators -- we need to
compile the list as soon as the board is set up -- one of the
first jobs."
Symbolic_Guest says, "There are some tough issues in data bases:
language (do we limit it to English); content (How do we define
this?) and
various other cultural assumptions."
Helen says, "We cannot limit language, but we will have to all
be prepared to translate as we go."
Deena says, "Yes, considering that this will be an international
thing, Helen. We should probably have a place to define terms.
There are so many terms for these things and we don't have a
steady lingo yet! I say elit, you say electron, I say art, you
say "image. . . ""
Symbolic_Guest says, "So a data-base has to list what languages
each person reads."
Helen says, "Yes, Cynthia"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Deena - good point- artists always talk
about imagery for content and others talk about pictures, Imagery
being more
concrete than the picture, and I suspect that imagery in literature
is more abstract."
Deena says, "Good point Cynthia"
Loki93c says, "I am using the Systran translator, its rough
but works okay"
Deena says, "Which system translator?"
Loki93c says, "Systran. . . it's a freebie but it works"
Margaret says, "Where do you get it from Loki?"
Loki93c says, "Off a PC Pro cover disc I think. I think you
can get it at cnet.
com downloads too."
Deena
hands round a refreshing Pocari sweat and more margaritas.
Nisar says, "Is there a central location where all these lists
and resources are linked?"
Deena says, "Not that I know of..."
Deena says, "Yes, it would still be good to have a list of lists
for announcements--and a central place would be great for news.
"
Loki93c says, "Okay, can someone e-mail me all relevant e-mail
addresses of u all so I can coordinate this?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Loki93c - who are you and what is your
email address?"
Deena says, "Yes, please send me the URLS and email addresses
and I will send out an email to all involved to help coordinate"
Loki93c says, "Loki93c<AT>cybercide.co.uk"
Nisar says, "FineArt
forum launches a resources page next year. . we could look
into including relevant URLs there?"
Deena says, "That would be a great place to post URLS. and the
more cross posting the better. "
Helen says, "Isn't the ELO symposium organised by now? Will
they be able to fit in the "Launch" of this service?
Deena says, "Helen, yes, I can check with Scott Rettberg on
that. . ."
Deena
says, "We have brainstormed a lot of ideas and need to continue
these conversations!"
Helen says, "Marriageofconvenience. org is available!"
Robert_Nagle_ Robert, distracted by the URL's mentioned above
and humming along to an old Hindi tune, slips out of the room
quietly and
unobtrusively, hoping that the other people in the room are
too busy to notice the sudden whooshing of air behind him."
Deena laughs at the URL, but thinks that that would be fun.
Says thanks for coming Robert
Robert_Nagle_ says, "Goodbye all. I keep forgetting to come
to these chats. " I'll try to come more often!"
Deena says, "ROBERT, we are doing program chats on the third
Sunday of each month and chats on the other Sundays"
Nisar says, "Bye Robert"
Deena says, "Ok, can we sum up our promises here before we head
out?"
Deena says, "I'll collate the URLs, emails and send out letters
saying what are we doing."
Helen says, "Bye Robert nice to see you again!"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I will work on getting ISEA
excited about this"
Nisar says, "I think this has been very fruitful :-)"
Loki93c says, "Ill set up a bulletin board if you want?"
Deena says, "Get info at trAce
or http://www.
eliterature. org/"
Margaret says, "Thanks Loki"
Deena says, "Yes, please, that will be a good place to coordinate
actions"
Loki93c says, "Good, I'll sort out Moderator access for some
of you (no offense to others)"
Helen says, "I think that's a great idea -- a panel with an
online component <nodding at Loki>"
Deena says, "great, Cynthia. We can work on getting a plan for
all 3 conferences to have a thread on collaborating with art
and lit."
Deena says, "I'll check with ELO on the symposium and get back
with a proposal. . . "
Nisar
says, "Curious: does anyone here work full-time in the art/tech
field?"
Deena says, "Wish I did, Nisar, In real life, I'm a technical
writer. . . "
Loki93c says, "Im a website designer by day, and Loki93c by
night. . . . . . lol"
Helen says, "I work for trAce
-- does that count?"
Nisar says, "Oh yes. Helen is the most fortunate. I teach by
day. . . "
Helen says, "I am VERY fortunate -- but it is a difficult business
keeping ourselves going. . ."
Deena says, "WE all have such busy lives--yet I am glad that
elit and e art have such an allure that we can devote our passion
to it. . . "
Helen says, "And we do teach :)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I teach part-time - I couldn't keep up
with the kids when I tried actually producing commercial stuff."
Symbolic_Guest
says, "Is any one already planning to submit a literature based
proposal to ISEA?"
Deena says, "Helen, can anyone at trAce
help with this type of proposal?"
Nisar says, "FineArt
forum' definitely keen too. I can rope in some asian/singapore
support/connections."
Helen says, "The mix is very good. . . . . "
Deena says, "Great. We can consider this a really great spark
to fan some flames of collaboration--this could be the start
of something grand!"
Deena passes around pre-celebratory champagne and the inevitable
parting glass of Guinness. . .
Margaret says, "Will there be a log of this I had a telephone
call in the middle."
Deena says, "Yep, I will have the log at http://www.
eliterature. org/ in the next week or so, Margaret. Click
on community."
Helen says, "Deena we must send the log to Sue and see what
she comes up with -- she knows a lot of people, but it is already
too late for a
lot of grant applications"
Deena says, "Ok, I will send the log to Sue and Scott and see
what we can come up with on their ends."
Helen says, "Sue Thomas is the artistic Director of trAce"
Nisar says, "Who is Sue?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "The problem is that we need time to obsess
over trivia in order to break new ground - and only the academic
world
supports that."
Deena says, "Well, maybe we can avoid some of the trivia by
keeping it simple--a bulletin board for news and an online panel
at conferences for collaboration. . . "
Helen says, "Nisar and Cynthia can circulate their people :)"
Margaret says, "If there is anyone short of space I have two
sites which anyone with a password can use but I would need
references."
Loki93c
says, "Well, you can have the b/board on me to save funds."
Deena says, "'Terrific. These artists and writers are always
starving and short of funds :)"
Loki93c says, "It's the least I can do after all this scene
has done 4 me"
Deena claps Loki on the back and says he is a jolly good fellow.
Loki93c says, "I'll have 2 reopen cybercide again now. . . .
. lol"
Deena says, "Don't go committing too many cybercides, Loki,
we probably need you out of cyberjails. . . "
Loki93c says, "Lol. . . nahm I had 2 close my site."
Helen says, "Why did you close it Loki? I went looking for it."
Loki93c says, "Someone claimed it was THEIR work can u believe!"
Deena says, "No, Loki, do you have the URL"
Loki93c says, "I'm moving it 2 a new website Deena"
Deena says, "Loki, send me the new URL--Thanks. "
Helen says, "Loki, you'll have to tell me about it sometime
soon -- I'm researching copyright on the Net."
Loki93c says, "It's a nightmare Helen. . cheers for C &
N"
Helen
says, "We'll end up needing a website to output the database."
Deena hands round a glass of Guinness/genius for the roads.
Nisar
says, "Cynthia. r u involved with creative writing - the conference?"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Nisar - I am not sure what you mean -
ME or ISEA?"
Deena says, "Anything else we want to go over before officially
wrapping up? You all are welcome to stay and chat, but I wanna
make sure we have all official business as covered as we can
in this initial foray. . ."
Nisar says, "Cynthia - u. "
Nisar says, "Anyone heard of caraways?"
Deena says, "I also want to say three cheers and hooray for
Cynthia and Nisar to come and venture into our bizarre little
world. . . "
Nisar says, "Thanks Deena. Its been very enlightening. "
Deena says, "Thanks for coming and opening up the doors for
future collaboration and cooperation between these wonderful
ventures, FineArt
forum, ISEA,
ELO, and trAce."
Nisar says, "A chat that's turned into an international collaborative
project ;)"
Helen says, "(Isn't that another Cynthia?)"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Thanks - this has been great"
Margaret says, "Bye everyone"
Deena says, "Great, glad we could meet your expectations. .
"
Symbolic_Guest says, "I am the Cynthia who has some web sites
linked off the trAce
site"
Loki93c says, ":-))"
Deena says, "Ahh. Ok, the connections thicken then :)"
Helen says, "Darn , I just missed someone from Oslo in the other
chat room -- could have been another international dimension!"
Nisar says, "U bet. . . . this is amazing. "
Nisar says, "Cynthia - r u connected with Affinities?"
Deena says, "Nisar, we have a lot of fun here--I will send you
the calendar for future trAce/ELO
chats, maybe you can put it in FineArt
forum. . . . "
Nisar says, "Yes Deena. Definitely . . please do send it along.
I can email you our deadlines. "
Deena says, "Glad we could start off your Monday in an amazing
way :0"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - the same Cynthia - I do all the
2D ambiguous imagery in all forms"
Symbolic_Guest says, "My web site:
http://cbrubin. net/ (my site memoirs is a visual hyper-text)"
Deena says, "All these connections we miss. I am at http://www.deenalarsen.net/"
Helen says, "http://www.
helenwhitehead. com/"
Nisar says, "http://www.
keshvani. com"
Helen says, "And trAce.ntu
ac.uk of course!"
Nisar says, "Aaaah ok - glad we could meet online. "
Deena says, "Ahhh now I know you. . I like affinities very much.
"
Deena says, "Yes, please email me the deadlines. "
Nisar says, "Is there a way to chat online like this on moo
somewhere??"
Deena says, "Yes, this moo is always open and we can log, or
whatever. Also trAce
has an IRC that we can use."
Nisar says, "It's so quick."
Nisar
says, "Btw - everyone. FineArt
forum's put together a traveling screen in prog. It screens
in Manila tomorrow"
Deena says, "That would be interesting. . . A traveling screen
program would be great. We are doing traveling ereadings. .
. should coordinate!"
Nisar says, "WHAT!!!! I didn't know that. "
Deena says, "Yeah, ELO has been really tying hard to get readings
in different cities. Did Chicago last week. "
Deena says, "We need to get some good form of communication
going, huh? I didn't know about the traveling screens. . . "
Helen says, "How'd it go? Do you know?"
Nisar says, "Deena - we should work on this. "
Deena says, "I think it went pretty well, I don't know directly.
. . "
Deena says, "Yep. I'll email you and Scott to get on this together.
. .Scott is our ELO director. "
The
housekeeper arrives to cart Margaret off to bed.
Loki93c says, "I have 2 depart, night all, keep me posted please"
Nisar says, "Nite Loki"
Symbolic_Guest says, "ISEA
decided to team up with FineArt
forum to do the calendar - they have all the experience
- and are doing a great job!"
Nisar says, "Kool. This is sounding very good."
Helen says, "Must go, got lots to do and it's my bedtime!"
Nisar says, "Thanks for that Cynthia ;)"
Deena says, "But imagine if we could team up to do the calendar
with ISEA
and FineArt
forum . . . "
Deena says, "We have so much we can do you guys!"
Helen says, "Bring em all to incubation
please!"
Nisar says, "Very possible Deena. "
Deena says, "Let's continue all the enthusiasm in emails and
connections and calendars and conferences !"
Nisar says, "Aaah I cant get away for incubation.
"
Helen says, "We have been trying to put together a troupe to
perform web-work and hypertext."
Deena says, "Good idea Helen, we shall try. . . "
Symbolic_Guest says, "Sounds good - "
Deena says, "Maybe we can get the screens to incubation
if we can't get Nisar. . . "
Helen says, "I am going to create a human hypertext in Edinburgh
in March. . . . "
Deena says, "Oh wow!!!"
Helen says, "Creativity in Question"
Nisar says, "Helen. . you should send us highlights of this
work. "
Deena says, "Nisar, Cynthia, this is why it would be good to
get us together--we could at least keep each other informed
of interesting and fun happenings"
Helen says, "I'm inspired by Deena's working methods!"
Nisar says, "I AGREE Deena. . . "
Helen says, "Anyway, look forward to hearing more from you all.
REALLY great to meet you!"
Deena says, "But we can keep going off chat and in asynchronous
time--don't think you've heard the last of us ;)"
Nisar says, "Glad to hear there'll be a sequel ;)"
Deena says, "Good night and good morning to all and sundry--I'll
work on the log, emails, etc. Please send textra<at>chisp.net
Helen says, "OK, bye all. . . "
Deena says, "We may even do a follow up chat, let's see where
we get to. . We can always set up another meeting. . . "
Helen has disconnected.
Deena says, "Bye Helen, bye all"
Nisar says, "I would like that very much"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Bye all - looking forward to follow-up"
Deena says, "Thanks again for coming:)"
Nisar says, "Bye Cynthia. nice to talk in real time :P"
Symbolic_Guest says, "Yes - until next time"
Deena says, "To quit, type @quit or close your browser, Nisar.
Have fun all."
-- End log: Sunday, November 18, 2001 3:19:54 pm CST
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