--Session
Start: Sun Oct 21 20:58:45 2001
Feathers
has joined #trAce
Sue Thomas says, "Hi feathers"
Feathers says, "Hello"
Sue says, "Is this your first time at chat?"
Feathers says, "No, I was here a couple of times last month."
Sue says, "Ah, I don't get here so much these days."
Sue says, "But I am standing in for Helen this week."
Feathers says, "I am still a newbie at trAce."
Sue says, "I've seen your posts."
*** Margaret Penfold has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Margaret."
Feathers says, "I think I learn as much from making the
posts as I do from the feedback."
Feathers says, "Hello Margaret."
Margaret Penfold says, "Hello everyone."
Sue says, "Feathers, have you been in a community like
this before?"
Feathers says, "I don't think there is a community quite
like this elsewhere."
Margaret Penfold says, "Have we a subject tonight?"
Sue says, "Margaret, it was meant to be frAme6
but it has been delayed so I would like to propose another topic."
Feathers says, "Perhaps we could talk about community?"
Margaret Penfold says, "Yes."
Sue says, "I would like to propose we discuss how writers
have been dealing with Sept 11."
Sue says, "There are quite a few people waiting to come
in."
Margaret Penfold says, "In writing? On the whole haven't."
Sue says, "Feathers, that's a good idea but I thought Sept
11 might be more general to the audience who have come for frAme6."
Feathers says, "Not a problem."
Sue says, "Hmm this isn't good."
*** R Adams has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Ah randy."
Margaret Penfold says, "Re Sept11 I am wary of being tactless."
Sue says, "Then Margaret - try not to be!"
*** Everdeen Tree has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Everdeen."
*** Tom Bell has joined #trAce
R Adams says, "Hey Ev."
Sue says, "Good - I wondered because nobody replied to
it."
Sue says, "Welcome Tom."
R Adams says, "Hi Tom."
Everdeen Tree says, "Hello all."
*** R Adams is now known as randy
Tom Bell says, "Hello, all."
Sue says, "Attention please."
Sue says, "Topic/ change."
Everdeen Tree says, "Sorry (re topic/change)...I think
you have to be a spider...."
Everdeen Tree says, "But beyond that I don't know."
Sue says, "I am afraid we have had to postpone the frAme
chat because the issue is not finished yet."
(editor's note: this chat took
place on December 02 2001.)
Everdeen Tree says, "Just that Helen has mentioned being
unable to do so when she wasn't a spider
*** Deena has joined #trAce
*** Everdeen Tree is now known as Ev
Sue says, "So I would like to propose that we talk about
how writers are dealing with 11 Sept."
Sue says, "Hi Deena."
Sue says, "That is my suggestion - what do you think?"
randy says, ":: ducks and covers."
Tom Bell says, "I agree Sue."
Deena says, "We are going to talk about how writers are
dealing with 9-11?"
Sue says, "That is my suggestion."
Sue says, "What do you think Deena?"
Deena says, ""Sure. I am so proud of myself I got
an IRC to work after 6 months of trying :)"
Sue says, "Well done!"
Sue says, "We have a few more people waiting outside -
I will go and page them again."
* randy grabs a brownie from Ev
Deena says, " "But Sue I don't know how to log, so
please log..."
Deena says, ":Hands round emergency rations and more brownies."
Ev says, "Thanks for helping with the brownies."
* Ev places the platter of triple-chocolate brownies on the
table."
*** Ev has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Sue says, "Deena I am logging already, don't worry."
Sue says, "If anyone else would like to log as well that
would be good."
Tom Bell says, "I've been trying to write poetry. It's
difficult but it seems to help."
Sue says, "Tom, tell us more."
Tom Bell says, "Poetry is a way of processing what's going
on."
Sue says, "I am writing what was/is a very positive book
about virtual life.. but now I am having problems."
*** Helen Whitehead has joined #trAce
randy says, "I'm furiously processing cutups of news items,
quite a backlog now, haven't a clue what I'll do with them."
Sue says, "Some of the things I said earlier don't fit
anymore."
Deena says, "I was already pretty active on some social
matters (my best friend went through an ordeal that showed how
poor and corrupt the U.S.'s social services is...) But the 9-11
seemed to be an awakening for America--that we do indeed live
on planet earth and need to consider complex issues. I was disappointed
in the way we are reacting, and so have been spending most of
my time writing press releases, organizing war protests, etc."
Sue says, "Helen thanks for coming --
*** Everdeen Tree has joined #trAce
*** Helen Whitehead changes topic to '21st October: frAme6 chat
postponed: discussion of 11th Sept responses '
Sue says, "Helen , the discussion is about how writers
are dealing with sept 11."
Margaret Penfold says, "Why not, Sue?"
Deena says, ""Hi Helen :) hands Helen a brownie from
platform 9 and 3/4
Everdeen Tree says, "Hello Helen."
Tom Bell says, "This has been an active topic on 'poetics'
list and elsewhere."
Sue says, "Margaret for a start, I have written about New
York City in a way which now needs to be changed."
Helen Whitehead says, "Hello folks -- just got back from
a long drive and am tired: just carry on and I'll listen quietly."
Tom Bell says, "I've been writing out the media responses
and modifying them."
Margaret Penfold says, "In what way, Sue?"
Deena says, "Has virtual life changed much, Sue, do you
think?"
Sue says, "Deena that's a very good question - I think
it has in some ways."
Deena says, "Tom, how have you modified media responses?"
Deena says, "How has virtual life changed?"
Tom Bell says, "Visually and verbally."
Margaret Penfold says, "Has it really changed or is it
just how you view it."
*** Everdeen Tree is now known as Ev
Sue says, "In the days immediately following the attack,
I was worried that the internationality of trAce
and other places might be threatened."
Tom Bell says, "I think virtual life has become more open
and honest."
Deena says, "I have seen a lot of effective petitions--one
got over 700,000 names in a matter of a week, and I have seen
lots of great websites and places to put your comments... Having
the web has changed the way we interact with events, but has
this changed the way we interact on the web?"
Deena says, "How more open and honest, Tom?"
Sue says, "Now I am not so worried, but I think even in
cyberspace people retreated to their own cultures even if just
briefly."
Ev says, "So a petition successful in getting signatures...effective
in being a petition?"
Deena says, "How did you see people retreating Sue?"
Tom Bell says, "People are more willing to share how they
feel and not feel like they have to be someone effective in
getting signatures. Totally ineffective in urging peace and
justice for those responsible."
Sue says, "Deena it's hard to explain and actually quite
delicate."
Margaret Penfold says, "Some of these petitions have IMO
been put there purely for the purpose of disrupting the web."
Deena says, "Any particular examples you can point to?"
Deena says, "Interesting, Margaret. How do the petitions
disrupt the web?"
Helen Whitehead says, "People around me started reverting
to racist attitudes of 50 years ago!"
Sue says, "Well, in the early days, Americans were asking
'why do people hate us?'"
Margaret Penfold says, "If you look at the signatures you
will find the same names crop up over 100 times."
* Ev nods
Tom Bell says, "You'd have to look at the poetics archives."
*** Mike Byrne has joined #trAce
Ev says, "Some Americans were asking 'why do people hate
us'?"
Deena says, ""Maybe so, I didn't look at the actual
signatures..."
Tom Bell says, "Ask me later, Deena and I can be more specific."
Sue says, "Ev, that's what we hear all the time over here.
Is that not true?"
Ev says, "Sue, did you hear me say it?"
Margaret Penfold says, "They block up the nodes, they disrupt
quite useful official functions."
*** Mike Byrne is now known as Mike
Ev says, "Did you hear every American member of trAce
ask it?"
Mike says, "Good evening all."
Ev says, "We are individuals."
Deena says, "Margaret, the e-mailed petitions or the ones
where you go to a web site to sign them?"
Ev says, "The people who died are individuals."
Ev says, "We need to not forget that."
Deena says, ""Hi Mike."
Mike says, "Hi Deena."
Ev says, "Not to forget that in the rush to understand
to symbolize to politicize to motivate."
Sue says, "Hi Mike."
Mike says, "Hi Sue."
Sue says, "Ev do you think it changed virtual life? What's
your opinion?"
Margaret Penfold says, "E-mailed petitions Deena. The ones
you have to go to a website are fine so long as the owner of
the site has no commercial sideline."
Deena says, "Yes, this is a tragedy for so many individuals
on so many levels in so many countries..."
Ev says, "I think we need to begin with precision in our
own language."
Ev says, "I'm speaking now to the example of your comment."
Mike says, "So what's the crack this evening?"
Ev says, "It takes time to say."
Mike says, "Ahem ......."
Deena says, "Ahhh... the one I was referring to was the
website. Didn't get email ones. But my computers have been memwiped
and down for over a month now."
Tom Bell says, "Precision or a new language, Ev."
Deena says, "Mike we are talking about how writers react
to Sept 11."
Ev says, "It is said that 'Americans are asking..."Why
do people hate us?"'"
Ev says, "But that is different."
Ev says, "Or say...it is reported that many Americans are
asking
Ev says, "But do not say Americans are asking."
Sue says, "This is an interesting point Ev."
Ev says, "As if all were unaware of global history or events."
Margaret Penfold says, "What shocked me is one trAce
member (who shall be nameless) told me in a shocked tone 'I
know for certain there was even an Afghani on the trAce
site.'"
Helen Whitehead says, "Yes there are lots in MIME!"
Mike says, "Well naturally I thought it was a tragedy myself,
I extend my sympathies."
* Ev waves a belated hello to Mike
Deena says, "Hmmmm....did they mean "There is an Afghani
and we should reach out in international cooperation..or...."
Mike says, "Hi Ev."
Margaret Penfold says, "They meant the or Deena."
Mike says, "But I think the bombing of Afghanistan is a
mistaken policy."
Deena says, "Just got back from a protest here where a
computer store called the cops when several Arab Americans bought
a hard drive."
Sue says, "Deena, so you have been writing protest material?"
Deena says, "Bummer...I keep thinking people would see
that people are people everywhere. We didn't say, oh my god,
there is someone from Michigan on the list when Tim McVeigh
was captured..."
Ev says, "Deena, some people do....some don't."
Deena says, "Yes, mostly petitions, press releases, flyers,
brochures..."
randy says, "Most are unaware, Ev! So are Canadians."
Sue says, "Have you made any hypertexts or is this mostly
print?"
Ev says, "Randy, most is not all."
Randy says, "Who said all."
Ev says, "To use the generic...as if all....."
Ev says, "Is to reinforce in language."
Deena says, "Mike, I agree. I like the analogy--if you
find a complex problem in your bookkeeping, you don't blow up
the books. You investigate to pinpoint the problem."
Ev says, "Stereotyping....."
Deena says, "All practical print, at the moment."
Ev says, "It gets burdensome yes, to say it seems that
most Americans are, or new reports say that most Americans are."
Deena says, ""You are right Ev, I shall have to be
more careful in my language..."
Ev says, "But remember that most news reports....are of
the out-of-the-ordinary."
Sue says, "It's worse regarding Afghanistan because those
people don't have a voice at all, esp. the women."
Margaret Penfold says, "As usual the civilians seem to
be paying for a tyranny's sins."
Deena says, "Media seems to be part of the problem...we
only have room for 5 second sound bites even though we have
24 hour news that needs new and sensational stuff. You can't
explore interest rates, aid, history, oil, energy, etc. in the
news."
Tom Bell says, "People seem to think the media speaks for
Americans or to be more precise US citizens."
Sue says, "Deena this is so true."
Mike says, "Unfortunately, I am not involved in framing
American foreign policy at the moment."
Mike says, "Es tut mir lied."
Ev says, "Then Tom where are our voices, as writers, pointing
out the difference."
Deena says, "Yes, and we can't even tell how bad it is,
but UN estimates are over 2 million will die in Afghanistan
this winter from lack of food and medicine."
Ev says, "How many of the discussions on the lists have
been continuing with the "Americans are".....formula..."
Mike says, "Nor am I likely to be in the foreseeable."
randy says, "Thank goodness, mike."
randy says, ";-)"
* Mike laughs
Tom Bell says, "That's; the point. We need to speak."
Margaret Penfold says, "What I can't understand is why
if NATO or whatever helped Bin Ladin build those tunnels they
didn't keep the maps and put in their own secret entrances."
Deena says, "Ouch, really Tom? I would hate to have my
voice judged by the media."
randy says, "Good point, tom, very good."
Deena says, "Margaret, we seem to be paying not only for
tyranny's sins, but for US foreign bumbling sins as well."
*** Reiner has joined #trAce
Sue says, "Hi Reiner."
Randy says, "Welcome Reiner."
Sue says, "The frAme discussion has been postponed."
Ev says, "We need to start in our own everyday language
in our own neighbourhoods in our own chats...to be more precise....that
in itself is important."
Deena says, "Hi Reiner we are talking about how writers
have reacted to and are writing about 9/11."
Reiner says, "Does it work now?"
Deena says, "Yep we can see you."
Sue says, "Reiner tell is about Germany."
Tom Bell says, "We bumbled Vietnam because people didn't
speak out early enough."
Sue says, "How are writers reacting to sept 11 in Germany?"
Margaret Penfold says, "The thing is we have known about
the appalling conditions of Afghani women for over three years
- why this sudden interest at this particular time."
Tom Bell says, "Or weren't allowed to speak."
Deena says, "Right, before there were a few petitions,
some bits of aid, but not much."
Mike says, "I don't class myself as a writer, I see myself
more as a commentator."
Sue says, "I have a more general question."
Randy says, "Cultures are always judged by the loudest
voices, and the loudest are always reactionary, it seems."
Ev says, "Tom, it does seems to me that there is a difference
in the media treatments this time compared to the Vietnam war."
Margaret Penfold says, "Why, when we are so short of nurses
and doctors didn't we go in and grab them for the NHS, the qualified
ones."
Sue says, "Is it possible to make art at such a raw time,
or is the best art made in later reflection?"
Deena says, "I don't think a lot has CHANGED since 9/11
it is jut that some people are more aware of the complex issues
in the world now and the passions behind some of these issues."
Mike says, "Yes what about Germany ?"
* Mike listening
Tom Bell says, "Ev, say more about difference."
Deena says, "Sue, maybe Reiner can answer that--he put
together pieces during the Bosnian war 'Weak Blood.'"
Reiner says, "I can not speak for Germany."
Margaret Penfold says, "Would that web email re Afghanistani
have done the rounds so fully before Sept 11?"
Tom Bell says, "Reiner, if you do it again I'll contribute."
Ev says, "There seems to be.....if you look at the whole.....of
a news magazine....or a networks coverage...more balance to
the presentation."
Deena says, "I think we need both--the raw emotions of
the time and then the later reflections. We also need something
to read and react to rather than the media accounts."
Randy says, "Yeah, in the Vietnam war, journalists were
allowed to mingle with the troops on the ground...not this time!"
Deena says, "We need an emotional resonance now."
Reiner says, "I think I will not do something like weak
blood at the moment."
Sue says, "In the UK they are bringing in new anti-religious-hatred
legislation and it is having an interesting spin off."
Margaret Penfold says, "Every war I've been in we have
been assured the propaganda is only on the enemies' side."
Deena says, "Reiner, did you see a difference in the weak
blood pieces done in the raw moment and those done later?"
Ev says, "More in-depth coverage of the background (both
politics and culture) and of issues....of wider ramifications."
Sue says, "Comedians are saying that they will not be able
to make jokes about sensitive things anymore and that this is
unhealthy."
Deena says, "Ahhh. n ow I get the Jedi knight as religion
in the Brit census bit."
Sue says, "That's different!"
Ev says, "Than in the early days of the Vietnam war."
Reiner says, "Deena, all pieces of weakblood
have been done in the 'Raw moment.'"
Sue says, "But its an interesting point re comedians and
by extension writers."
Ev says, "Or even the middle days."
Deena says, "Yet, when we look back, we see a lot of US
propaganda. In the Gulf War, the US lied about Iraqis killing
babies in incubators."
Reiner says, "Truth is the first victim of war"
Ev says, "Not arguing that Deena....there is a lot under
the carpet now I'm sure......and I would sigh...as always..."
Deena says, "Sorry for the Jedi herring, Sue. How is the
anti religious stuff affecting Britain and what are the spin
offs?"
Sue says, "There is bound to be propaganda everywhere and
yet I find myself watching the news all the time even tho it
is appallingly limited."
Mike says, "I think politics is a distraction to stop writers
form writing ; it's a vast conspiracy."
Reiner says, "I think the media/propaganda nowadays is
much more subtle than ......"
Mike says, "... to prevent the truth from being spoken."
Ev says, "Limited how Sue...what in particular do you sense
is missing in UK coverage?"
Sue says, "Ev - frankly - detail."
Sue says, "There is very little detail."
Ev says, "Detail with respect to....what?"
Deena says, "Ahhh,... Then can you see a difference between
weak blood pieces and pieces about war that are not done in
war time?"
Sue says, "For example."
Helen Whitehead says, "I'd like rather LESS detail -- why
go on about smallpox, it'll just frighten everyone and give
terrorists ideas!"
Margaret Penfold says, "Yes, its like a great detailed
backdrop to a film with the foreground action missing."
Sue says, "The BBC interviewed a doctor who treated the
10 yr old boy who died - son of mullah amah."
Sue says, "Sorry can't spell his name."
Deena says, "Actually, there seems to be too much detail
about potential threats and not enough about WHY we are doing
what we are doing in Afghanistan, what the evidence against
Bin Laden etc., is, how other countries are reacting."
* Ev nods...listens to Sue continue
Sue says, "They ran the interview on the radio but not
in the TV - why? - both BBC."
Sue says, "The reason is that it is sound only - they are
choosing what looks good on TV."
Helen Whitehead says, "Maybe the threats detail is to make
us support the bombing."
Sue says, "That is why it is so limited."
Ev says, "Radio vs. television...isn't that a matter of
distribution rather than detail."
Ev says, "Detail available."
Sue says, "No, Ev."
Tom Bell says, "Reiner, why not another 'weak blood'?"
randy says, "The bullshit I don't like is the :: you are
either with us or against us ::"
Margaret Penfold says, "Of course, Helen."
Deena says, "The BBC coverage seems more open and forthcoming
than the NPR coverage we get here...I can only get the BBC world
news on radio, though."
Helen Whitehead says, "Well I want to go out and get some
Muslim friends, and I find that I don't know how."
Ev says, "Sue, what detail was lacking in that interview
then?"
Sue says, "Also--- even on BBC they seldom showed translation
or when afghan people are speaking - esp bin laden."
Reiner says, "The weak blood pieces are done in war times
--- the pieces there are very different --- some may not differ
from pieces done afterwards --- but - what or is there really
a difference --- are pieces done afterwards really more reflective?"
Ev says, "That you miss."
Sue says, "Ev you are pressing me for more detail than
I can give in a chat room conversation."
Deena says, "Randy, yes. And it is worse than that. Here
it is "United we Stand."So if you say, wait, don't
do racial profiling, think before we bomb, etc. then you are
not united, not patriotic, and worse."
Ev says, "I'm just trying to understand where the detail
is versus the distribution."
Ev says, "Sorry I won't continue asking."
Sue says, "I'm trying to say the detail is lacking throughout."
Deena says, ""Helen, mosques over here are very welcoming,
and you might check the Arab Anti Discrimination League on the
web."
Sue says, "It is all sound bites and picture bytes."
Sue says, "Bites."
Mike says, "Do they show pictures from Al Jezeera TV in
the US? it was CNN in the gulf war."
Margaret Penfold says, "Deena, isn't that what always happens
in war? It is only afterwards that people come to their senses
and feel ashamed. The younger generation always feels it won't
happen to them and then they get more patriotic than their elders."
Deena says, "Reiner, I am not sure the pieces done after
ARE more reflective... Thinking about Victory Garden, which
is more a novel after the Gulf War..using the war as a setting,
not reacting to the war... maybe that is the difference?"
Tom Bell says, "Sue, the media will never provide detail.
That's why poets' voices are important?"
Mike says, "So at least they have their own coverage."
Sue says, "But tom, where do the poets get their information?"
Reiner says, "Tom - do you think there is a real forum
for something like weak blood --- are you sure that you/art
can give Any "Suggestions"In the momentary situation.
--- a difference for me is that in the momentary situation I
do not see a "Need"For a project like this. The media/broadcast/tv
here in Germany is very "Objective"In my sight."
Mike says, "Which is something, not that you can see much."
Margaret Penfold says, "Of course, the only way to win
wars is to unite a people."
Tom Bell says, "From their reactions and reflections, Sue."
Deena says, "Margaret, maybe, but this time it feels different.
There have always been antiwar protests, but I don't think that
we saw the level of hatred, violence, and police intervention
in previous protests... not sure, though."
Margaret Penfold says, "Afterwards you divide them again
for your own benefit."
Deena says, "Sure, but what does UNITE mean? does it mean
agree with everything Bush says?"
Sue says, "Tom, ok, but they need real data to react to
as well."
Tom Bell says, "Remember Vietnam, Deena?"
Deena says, "Starts to divide the brownies rather than
the people."
Margaret Penfold says, "Look at the stirring speeches made
by English kings in the middle ages."
Deena says, "Ummm...got it in history books, mostly. Sorry,
Tom."
Sue says, "Question..."
Margaret Penfold says, "Look what happened to the wounded
soldiers when they returned home."
Tom Bell says, "My real data comes from talking with a
neighborhood Arab shopkeeper, Sue."
Deena says, "Listening to Sue...
Mike says, "Eh, let's not, Marg.. that was Shakespeare
, wasn't it?
Sue says, "Is it possible to say anything new in a new
way? it's so hard to write/make art and say things differently
to make people listen."
Tom Bell says, "And from how my kids are responding."
Sue says, "The rhetoric of peace and war always ends up
sounding the same for all situations - does it put people off
listening do you think?"
Tom Bell says, "Sue, that's why 'art' needs to change."
Deena says, "Sue, I'm not sure it is possible to say anything
new about war. Human nature, violence, stupidity of destruction...all
been covered. Maybe we can say something with different specifics."
Sue says, "Tom, yes, how?"
Deena says, "Maybe use the impacts of hypertext/graphics/motion
to reach the emotions of people."
Tom Bell says, "I think the old forms didn't work."
Sue says, "What images/texts have been powerful in the
past?"
Deena says, "Tom, why not?"
randy says, "My stepson told me yesterday that the 'Americans'
got what they deserved; so I asked him if he thought all the
people in the buildings deserved to die; he said, no; it seems
many people are unable to view people as being separate from
the policies of the leaders."
Sue says, "I am thinking of the running girl in the Vietnam
picture - napalm."
Mike says, "Guernica."
Sue says, "Guernica mike yes."
Reiner says, "Film / documentary shots reach the emotional
level. What will be the message?"
Sue says, "John Lennon's 'Imagine.'"
Sue says, "The burned Iraqi in the jeep."
Tom Bell says, "Deena, the forms we have came from the
old order."
Ev says, "Yes Randy."
Margaret Penfold says, "Maybe, Deena, there is something
inbuilt into the human race that we have to cull ourselves.
If we don't Gaia will send a new plague to do it instead."
Reiner says, "Imagine is a positive fiction."
Sue says, "Yes Reiner."
Randy says, "And if he got that opinion from things I said,
then I am ashamed."
Sue says, "Margaret I have heard it said that when we get
too much for Gaia she will simply shrug us off."
Margaret Penfold says, "So we make sure we don't get too
much by culling ourselves?"
Mike says, "I vote for Mars."
Sue says, "Randy it is back to Ev's point - we all talk
in shorthand, probably too much."
Tom Bell says, "We need to end media speak."
Deena says, "I vote for disease--much less noisy ;)"
Mike says, "Forgoing to mars, Deena."
Deena says, "Maybe the new art needs to center around the
media--to show what a skewed perspective we are getting."
Mike says, "I am going to Mars, byeee...."
Sue says, "Deena how can we do that when censorship is
in force."
Tom Bell says, "Right, Deena."
Reiner says, "Which perspectives will be left?"
randy says, "Shorthand is usually all we have."
Deena says, "Not sure if we can. It is not so much information
censorship as it is attitude censorship--if you talk about this,
you won't be a UNITED we STAND."
Tom Bell says, "Sue, the censorship basically comes from
the media's perception of what will sell."
Sue says, "Tom, yes."
*** Reiner has quit IRC (Connection Closed )
Helen Whitehead says, "The internet isn't subject to censorship
-- that's one new thing about this medium."
Margaret Penfold says, "Deena, this is mob war behaviour
Deena says, "REINER, good question. I think the perspective
of this is a complicated issues, here are some of the complications
may be left."
Sue says, "Helen I think it is!"
Mike says, "Let's face it , we're finished."
Margaret Penfold says, "People cannot hear reason - they
only hear it as treason."
Sue says, "Ok you cannot censor what goes up but you can
censor organisations from connecting to it."
Tom Bell says, "We need to go straight to the consumer
and bypass the media. This is why weak blood worked?"
Margaret Penfold says, "Even if before the war they would
have agreed with you."
Deena says, "Oh yes, Margaret. It is definitely a mob attitude.
I have spoken with neighbors and coworkers who believe that
what we are doing is absolutely right and vital, and to say
or think anything else is akin to destroying the country."
Deena says, "Why are we finished mike?"
Deena says, "Tom, I think so. Weak blood went to the consumer
via the web--we have a terrific messenger and a great way to
get around censorship!"
Mike says, "I'm being a bit facetious, I think we have
to tackle these problems on an ethical level."
Deena says, "I need to get out early...was a great chat.
thanks Sue!"
*** Deena has left #trAce
Sue says, "Folks it's about time to close up."
Helen Whitehead says, "I've had a long working day so I'm
off to bed. Night night folks."
Mike says, "Naturally if one is attacked one has the right
to justice."
Sue says, "Ah Deena is telepathic."
Mike says, "I'm only just starting."
*** Helen Whitehead has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Tom Bell says, "What does ethical level mean to you, mike?"
Margaret Penfold says, "Bye, everyone."
Mike says, "What is the the point in being serious."
Sue says, "Thanks for coming and facing up to this difficult
subject."
*** Margaret Penfold has quit IRC (QUIT: )
Mike says, "Ethical means."
Randy says, "I think the root of the problem is religion,
and there are no ethics in that regard."
Sue says, "Goodnight - I have to leave you to it."
*** Disconnected
Session
Close: Sun Oct 21 21:59:36 2001
