Start
log: Sunday, August 5, 2001 2:16:26 pm CDT
Julianne
arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Julianne! Are you Julianne Chatelain?"
Julianne
says, "Hi Deena, yes I am...here to listen and learn..."
Deena
says, "Great! No one is here yet, but I expect folks soon."
Julianne
says, "OK!"
Sue,
Vika, Cleo, Jenny, Everdeen, Margaret arrive.
Deena
hands round ice tea and cookies.
Deena
says, "Hi all! We are warming up for our chat with Katherine
Hayles and the NEH seminar on Literature in Transition"
Katherine arrives.
Deena
hands round more ice tea and notebooks and pens for the class
Deena
says, "Hi Katherine"
Julianne
nods, waves at Sue and Katherine.
Deena
flexes her fingers for better typing.
Sue
says, "Hi Julianne - long time no see"
Julianne says, "Hi Sue, how is everything - now that I
'm back I hope to see you in a trAce
chat too."
Sue
says, "Deena is there a weblink for this chat?"
Deena
shares a URL. http://www.english.ucla.edu/faculty/Hayles/NEH2001
Sue
says, "Thanks"
Helen
arrives, like a train from Platform 9 and three-quarters.
Michele,
Elizabeth, C&W_Guest , Taos_Guest quietly enter.
Cleo
says, "Ah, you should have sent that with the chat announcement."
Deena says, "Yep, Cleo, I should have...sorry about that."
Dene
arrives in her golden chariot drawn by two fiery dragons.
Deena
says, "Hi all, welcome to the ELO/trAce chat with Katherine
Hayles and her students in Literature in transition--Katherine,
can you tell us a bit about the class first? What were the goals
for the course? and what have you found?"
Deena
hands round more ice creams and cool goodies.
Michele
says, "Hi Deena."
Helen
says, "Good evening/afternoon all."
Katherine
says, "Deena, can you tell us the format?"
Deena
says, "Yes, we can keep this pretty informal--I thought
it would be nice to sit in on your class and find out what you
have synthesized so far--what are the major insights you've
seen?"
Katherine
says, "We are a group of 16 people, from all around the
country, gathered at UCLA for six weeks to read hypertext theory,
literature, and pedagogy. It isn't really a class--more like
a high-powered seminar."
Deena
says, "Could the students in the course identify yourselves
and tell us a bit about your backgrounds?"
Michele
says, "Power bar seminar!"
Katherine
says, "We ripped through hypertext theory, reading the
likes of George Landow, Espen Aarseth, Bolter and Grusin. .
.And we have read lots of creative hypertexts as well, including
Deena's very own "Disappearing
Rain" and also "Glide,"
"Lexia
to Perplexia," and lots of others."
Julianne
waves at a URL of the fascinating syllabus here: http://www.english.ucla.edu/faculty/Hayles/NEH2001/syllabus.rev.doc
Michele
says, "Ooh, waving syllabi"
Jenny
laughs
Taos_Guest
says, "Vika is Del Doughty, who comes from Huntington College
in Indiana.""
Vika
says, "Hello, Del! Nice to 'see' you again."
Katherine
says, "We have also talked about the expansion of hypertext
beyond the link/lexia pattern. And here's something that may
interest you, Deena: Del Doughty and Will Gardner have been
giving us extensive information about the Japanese communal
poetic form of Renga, showing its similarities to hypertext."
Katherine
says, "Del, do you want to comment on that?"
Taos_Guest
says, "Okay, then. Renga: it's linked verse--linked haiku
and haiku-like verses, to be more specific. It's a very communal
kind of poetry. A group of three or four poets will gather,
one will begin with an opening verse (originally called a 'hokku'),
then the second poet will "Answer" the first with a short
verse that completes the hokku. Then it's the third poet's turn,
and s/he completes the second poet's verse, being careful not
to continue any kind of narrative from the first poet's verse.
This continues for a predetermined number of verses. And that's
generally it, I think, although there are lots of rules and
subtleties. It can get complex. Maybe Will can add more."
Sue
says, "Interesting!"
Deena
says, "There are some great haiku community sites with
linked Renga... Paul Conneally's Charnwood Arts project, Haikumania,
links rens. New Sun Planet [http://www2.gdi.net/~dmine/paperlanterns/newsun.html]
is a themed ren which uses hyperlinks to link writing and images.
Photo Haiku
provides photos and writers contribute their haikus based on
the photos and the haikus already there."
Deena
says, "Taos, how do you see the communities in renga comparing
with collaborative writing in electronic media?"
C&W_Guest
says, "Thanks, Dell, for the renga blurb. Helen, any Japanese
writers part of your project? (from Will)"
Deena
says, "There has now been over a decade on theory--for
hypertext--are we seeing any trends and differences in theory
now than theory in the 1980's and 90s?"
Taos_Guest
says, "I should mention, Katherine, that others in the
seminar may be under the impression that we were to start at
3 p.m. today. I was."
Katherine
says, "Oh, yes, it seems to me that hypertext theory is
moving away from print as its model and exploring more about
what it means to write in digital media."
Deena
rechecks the syllabus--it says 1-3pm Cal time..but ahh well...
Taos_Guest
says, "Yes, I 'd be glad to comment, Katherine. But let
me ask--why does everything I type appear twice in my window?""
Deena
says, "Taos--the system is mirroring what you say on your
screen, but we only see it once..." Deena thinks the system
is too wrapped up in self -identities.
Katherine
says, "The syllabus is largely American, but one of our
assignments (added as we went along) was also to look at the
"Jumpin' at the Diner" and "Dinner Party" sites, which
have many European works as well. And we are always open to
looking at new things too--suggestions are welcome!"
Deena
says, "Taos--what insights have you gained from the theory
and the shift in theory from print to modular?"
Helen
says, "It's rather American that syllabus -- don't you
count hypertexts by Brits and Australians, to name just two
alternative countries?"
Deena
says, "Helen, do you have any continental suggestions for
Katherine's syllabus?"
Helen
says, "Give me a little time .... and I 'll see! There's
so much good stuff coming out new..."
Katherine
says, "I'm rabidly interested in good new stuff! More,
more!"
Deena
hands round tea and cookies and invites others to ask questions
on the syllabus, theory, hypertext, Renga, and communities-
Deena
says, "Anyone, any good suggestions?"
Helen
says, "try Fractured at http://www.artcircus.co.uk/fractured/.
And you can add Peter
Howard, Diane
Caney and Melinda
Rackham to the
list of non-American new media writers. :)"
Deena
says, "I love Peter Howard's Rainbow
Factory, myself--such a neat use for flash and storytelling
in visuals..."
Michele
says, "Ooh, virtual rabid"
Michael
Shumate arrives.
Dene
says, "Deena, would you comment on the development of your
work, from early hypertext to the present? We have been talking
a lot in the seminar about this subject in relation to all authors."
Deena
says, "Sure, Dene... I have come from a fascination with
connections as meaning in themselves (Marble
Springs ) to a fascination with structure as meaning (Disappearing
Rain) and now, with my latest with Geoffrey Gatza e:electron
and other flash stuff to working with motion as meaning...As
well as totally fractured conversations.."
Sue
says, "Katherine I 'd like to ask about the students -
are they all at a similar level of understanding and skills
or are you finding many differences between them?"
Katherine
says, "Of course there are differences in background among
our participants. But by and large this is a very hip group,
with some very advanced folks in it, both in terms of theory
and practice."
Sue
says, "That's interesting - we often find a wide range
of skills and it often takes a while to get everyone on the
same page - which is fine and always interesting!"
Deena
says, "Katherine, Dene, and students--have you found the
diversity in experience helpful in seeing these works in new
lights?"
Dene
says, "In what way do you mean diversity?"
Deena
says, "Dene, diversity in levels of experience with electronic
writing, levels of programming, etc.."
Katherine
says, "It's interesting to compare where folks are now
with similar seminars I directed in 1995 and 1998. Each time
a quantum leap in knowledge and skills. We have begun learning
the basics of C++ with this group, using the Borland C++ Builder."
Deena
says, "Wow...you guys are learning c++ to code hypertexts
and electronic meaning?"
Dene
says, "I think it helps to have a familiarity with the
medium to understand its processes, yeah:)"
Katherine
says, "Yes, the idea is to learn how to take control of
the Windows environment for both text and image. We have done
a few little sample programs, but it opens the door to more."
Deena
says, "Has learning to take this control led to sub-versions
of this control? of the windows environment?"
Julianne
thrills at the idea of taking control of the environment, leaping
over tool problems
Deena
says, "Yes, did you discuss how tools directly shape the
works you are looking at?"
Taos_Guest
says, "Diversity is always a blessing. In this group, I've
especially enjoyed hearing from Michele White. We don't have
an art history prof at my college.""
Deena
says, "Art backgrounds are really key. Have you looked
at Reiner Strasser's work as he combines his knowledge of art
and art history to electronic media?"
Katherine
says, "We did look at one piece by Reiner, but perhaps
not this one--can you give us a citation?"
Deena
says, "Actually, I was thinking more in general-- but Water~water~water,
a "transatlantic collaboration between Christy Sheffield Sanford,
Reiner Strasser, & Bodies of Water," really merges art and text..
Michele
says, "Thanks Del!"
Katherine
says, "Well, C++ Builder acts as an interface between a
"Whizzy Wig" what you see is what you get interface and
the much more complex APCX Windows code."
Deena
says, "I think the different backgrounds would be key to
gaining insights into some of these works..."
Taos_Guest
says, "I come at hypertext and multimedia from my little
literary world, and unless I 'm prompted to think about this
stuff in visual
terms, I miss quite a bit of what's going on."
Sue
says, "Taos that's interesting - have you found a divide
between the text based thinkers and the visual thinkers?"
Katherine
says, "We do have different backgrounds among our group,
in the sense that some are theorists, some are practitioners,
some are poets and scholars--all add to the richness of the
experience."
C&W_Guest
says, "It's also been interesting to have people who have
experience with creative writing and teaching writing"
Michele
says, "Do you think there is one "Creative writing
community?" Couldn't we speak about MOOing or graphical chats
under those
terms?"
Helen
says, "Can you give us a background of how this seminar
came about and how do you choose the attendees?"
Sue
says, "Michele I don't think there can ever be just one
writing community"
Katherine
says, "Definitely a divide between the visually inclined
and the textually inclined--and one reminds the other of what
one doesn't see/read/hear all the time."
Katherine
says, "Like Michele, for example--can you expand on your
comment
about graphical chats?"
Sue
says, "We have had some interesting experiences with poets
brought to
visuals and artists brought to texts - it intrigues me how they
move into
the 'other' world."
Michele
says, "I don't see myself as exploring the visual solely."
Katherine
says, "Of course not, but I thought you might say something
about
visual vs. nonvisual chats. . . "
Historical
Guest arrives
Deena
says, "Hi Historical--we are branching on many discussions,
but I'd
like to focus on Katherine Hayles NEH course itself--how it
came about and
how it is working?"
Michele
says, "Well, graphical chats have a form of "Creative
writing" in
the way that they design and share avatars for each other."
Deena
says, "Are there any specific examples from the course
of people seeing
works in new ways, thanks to the visual/textual or theoretical/practical
distinctions?"
Taos_Guest
says, "In response to Deena's question, the first thing
that comes
to mind is Lexia
to Perplexia."
Katherine
says, "I have been working with a print designers on a
new book
and we have been discussing lots of strategies for how visual
and word
can
interact. . ."
C&W_Guest
says, "With the textual elements in so much contemporary
art, it
really doesn't seem like such a leap to me for people to be
combining
these.--Will"
Michele
says, "It might be more appropriate to call it a "Painting
community"
but it seems to me the reading of such representations suggests
literary
conventions."
"Deena
says, "Electronic media is merging the visual and textual..so
getting
people together with these different backgrounds would be really
intriguing..."
Sue
says, "Can I ask a question about that? "As
a text person,my graphics are useless"
Dene
says, "That is where collaboration is useful, Sue"
Sue
says, "This means - perhaps - that I will always need a
collaborator
in order to make good sites"
Historical_Guest
says, "I hear you, Sue"
Sue
says, "But what if I don't want to collaborate?
Timid
Guest arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Timid Guest, we are talking about collaboration
and visual/textual
elements in electronic writing with Katherine Hayles and her
students in Literature in Transition"
Sue
says, "I think people worry about that"
Vika
says, "Same here, Sue."
Dene
says, "Yes, I am rethinking the way I approach literature.
Particularly in the fall.""
Julianne
says, "Sue then we have to make the tools better (back
to tools
again)."
Katherine
says, "It seems that she prefers situations where the visuals
say
something that the text could not and vice versa. . ."
Katherine
says, "The idea that some concepts are best conveyed through
words,
others through visuals."
Dene
says, "Why, Sue?"
Sue
says, "Why don't they want to? lots of reasons, I guess.
Many
artists/writers prefer to work alone, don't they?"
Deena
says, "Taos, how did people see Talan Memmott's Lexia
to Perplexia in
different ways?"
Taos_Guest
says, "Lexia
to Perplexia wore me out when I tried reading it.
It wasn't until I began understand the text as an image that
I began
to "Get it." Then I was able to go back and read bits and
pieces. It
hasn't cohered yet for me, but it's coming together."
Vika
says, "It's not always a matter of desire - or lack thereof
- to collaborate;
at times there's an inability to collaborate due to external
circumstances."
Sue
says, "Vika, good point"
Dene
says, "Yes, but when it comes to elaborate design and programming
work,
it is becoming increasingly more difficult to work alone."
Cleo
says, "A theorist at MIT [I think] posits that after thousands
of years
spent evolving into a language oriented race, that via TV, the
Web,
etc., we no longer read, but are de-volving into a non-verbally
oriented
race once again - communicating via images, signs, etc."
Dene
says, "That was Bolter's suggestion in Writing
Space. The second orality argument."
Editor's
Note: Jay
David Bolter
Deena
says, "So this is best seen as word as image.."
Deena
thinks about Lexia's code language...and mez's code language
verging into imagery...
Editor's
Note: Mez'
data][h!][bleeding t.ex][e][ts were on the shortlist for the
ELO fiction award
Katherine
says, "I think it's nonsense to say we don't read. We are
compulsive
readers of everything--commercials, cereal boxes, etc."
Sue
says, "I agree Katherine - indeed the web has forced people
to read more"
Vika
says, "Guess we'd better start on our re-education as Renaissance
people.
Katherine's seminar seems like a great venue for that, bringing
together people with such different backgrounds."
Helen
says, "I certainly don't think text is dead -- but the
ways in which
it can be enhanced are now myriad."
Deena
says, "Electronic media has had a short history, but so
far, what
trends did the class see?"
Katherine
says, "Maybe it's more accurate to say that the ways in
which we
read are changing--for frequent users of the Web, perhaps, becoming
more
impatient, wanting to read smaller blocks and move on."
Michele
says, "I think text disappears in those settings but still
actually
structures our experience."
Deena
says, "Are we converging on texts in new ways?"
Dene
says, "Immediacy:)"
Michele
says, "There is a lot of writing to read on TV, what about
the news,
a car ad, or the weather channel."
Deena
says, "Michele, how does text structure our experience
if the text
itself has disappeared? Any examples?"
Katherine
says, "It's a really interesting idea to think of text
structuring
our experience of how we read visual materials--I would also
say the
reverse is true. Witness "House of Leaves," which among
other things
uses visual and typographical design to break up the left/right
and top/bottom
patterns of reading."
Michele
says, "I mean that we think the experience is visual but
information
is imparted by texts."
Historical_Guest
says, "I think Katherine's right about readers' changing
"
Dene
says, "Text is transparent, Michele?"
Michele
says, "Absolutely Katherine."
Julianne
says, "Katherine & seminar folks, speaking of what
people 'want
to read' - have the teachers amongst you swapped ideas of how
to get more
readers to try the demanding stuff (like the works in your syllabus),
and what kind of readers should we be reaching out to."
Dene
says, "New teachers, public schools and university folks."
Julianne
says, "Ah!"
Cleo
says, "Come on though - if you query the average surfer, you
will find
that they look at things a lot more than they read them. Many
attest
to never reading hypertext thoroughly, but just experiencing
it visually/interactively"
Deena
says, "If theory has gone from print based to electronic
based, do
we see any new insights into the way we write--the tools, the
collaboration,
the becoming jacks-of-all-skills?"
Sue
says, "Deena I think the jacks-of-all-skills is a dangerous
notion - it
leads to a dilution"
Deena
passes round dangerous jacks-of-all-skills as handy household
and electronic
writing help...
Michele
says, "Snackies!"
Michele
says, "Well, in film we rarely think of the important part
that sound
plays in structuring the narrative. However, turn off the sound
and
try to figure out what is happening."
C&W_Guest
says, "Will here-- as a student & teacher of Japanese
literature
it strikes me that the Edo period (1600-1867) was a time when
there was
an extremely complex & advanced textual culture, and also
a very heady
visual culture, so I don't like the idea of it being an either/or
proposition.
. ."
Sue
says, "Will, can you say how the two interacted?"
Katherine
says, "I think one of the insights coming out of media-specific
analysis (as I call it--analysis that treats electronic text
as coded
documents in coded media) is to see that there are always multiple
languages
cooperating in the same spaces--as in "Lexia
to Perplexia" where
English gets infected by code and also code by English."
Deena
says, "Katherine, are there more than just languages cooperating
here?
We have touched on visual a bit, but I am also thinking about
time-based
animation, sound, etc..."
Historical_Guest
says, "About changing expectations...my first year students
can now kludge together a pretty sophisticated web page, visually
(albeit
with canned elements). But they reject works which blur the
lines
between text and image."
>>
Timid_Guest is now known as Aethers.
Michael
Denner arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Michael, we are talking about language and vision
colliding
in electronic media with students in the NEH seminar Literature
in Transition"
Katherine
says, "One of the ways that complex literature gets disseminated,
of course, is through university literature classes. So I 'm
all for
teaching hypertext in, say, the American literature curriculum."
Katherine
says, "By languages, I also meant coding languages, which
ultimately
control sound, animation, etc."
Sue
says, "Historical - why do they do that?"
C&W_Guest
says, "Sue, they interacted in many ways, including complex
illustrated
books, and cross fertilizations in the theoretical realm. For
example the idea of mitate, or parodic comparison, which migrated
from
haiku poetics to woodblock prints. A number of major popular
authors were
also illustrators/printmakers and vice versa. And of course
the calligraphy
was a major component of both the visual and textual."
Julianne
hides her battered copy of Tale of Genji under a cushion.
Cleo
says, "Can you be more specific about what you mean by
"Blur the lines?""
Deena
says, "So manipulating the code and the windows where the
text is served
is part of the language...So lines are blurred not only between
vision and text but between
medium served on and the work itself?"" "
Taos_Guest
says, "Julianne--As a teacher, I 'll probably try using
"Sand
and Soot"; it won some awards as a print poem, then it migrated
to the computer, and raises a lot of issues about how to read,
how sequence is affective, and so on."
Julianne
says, "Thanks Taos_Guest that's a great idea - to take
the students
along the path the work traveled...."
Katherine
says, "I am interested in the idea that your students balk
at text/image
hybrids, because that seems to be where electronic literature
is going, big time. Why don't they like it?"
Deena
says, "Katherine, did you see any balking in this course
about blurred lines? Did you discuss issues in archiving, identity,
etc that these blurred lines brings?"
Katherine
says, "Absolute the line is blurred between medium and
text. That's
a crucial point that critics are only beginning to understand."
Michele
says, "I have an article that describes the ways that textual
chat
becomes visual through programming conventions and the ways
that users
describe themselves."
Dene
says, "By whom, Michele?"
Deena
says, "Part of your syllabus was showing the rare art books.
Why did
you do this, and did it help show relationships between text
and image?"
Michele
says, "I think this visual/textual dichotomy is distracting,
although
of course we all do it..."
Michele
says, "Sorry, I wrote it."
Editor's Note: This refers to Michele
White, "Visual Pleasure in Textual Places: Gazing in Multi-user
Object Orientated Worlds," _Information, Communication and Society_
2, 4 (Winter 1999). Information about the issue and an abstract
are available at http://www.infosoc.co.uk/00108/contents.htm
Katherine
says, "Personally, my students like hybrid texts. I 'm
sure it
depends on how the material is presented, the student population,
and which
works are chosen. But I will say that young people now are so
visually sophisticated
in their ability to read complex visual images that the material
has to be good to hold their interest."
Deena
says, "How will this understanding of the blur between
media and text
affect theory and new works?"
Katherine
says, ""
Julianne
thinks Katherine's point about code being text (or them infecting
one another in certain works) is very apropos for what's going
on in
the courts - arguments about whether code is "Protected
speech" -
Deena
passes round new glasses for all to see each other reflected
in imagery
Dene
says, "I have been thinking that character will change
drastically."
Katherine
says, "Deena, we looked at Artist books to see how this
genre of
print literature was creating hypertext strategies in print."
Dene
says, "Particularly in VR lit environments."
Historical_Guest
says, "Why do they reject blurred lines? I dunno...they're
a TV-fed, ergo graphically oriented bunch...but they like linear
rose...insofar
as they can process text, they want pure logos."
Deena
says, "Wes, what is a pure logo? How can people draw lines
between
these areas, let along balk at crossing them?"
Everdeen
says, "Logos=word"
Historical_Guest
says, "That's what I 'm trying to puzzle out. They don't
reject Sven Birkerts privileging of text, for instance; they
like it.
But the change he decries applies, for better or worse, quite
well to
them."
Michele
says, "In the work of Jodi and some other net artists,
the underlying
code is also a form of visual language."
Taos_Guest
says, "The day we looked at artist books I wasn't thinking
visual/textual. I was thinking that the writers whose books
are in Borders are not the great writers I thought they were.
Writers who make artists' books and think of the materiality
of the book as an interface are
great writers."
Deena
says, "Katherine, seminar students, what strategies do
you see in hypertext
coming from art book, art history, and other traditions?"
Katherine
says, "Lots of wonderful material there that is hardly
ever mentioned
in discussions of hypertext, but which is really relevant to
the
discussion."
Historical_Guest
says, "BTW hi Katherine, Deena...Wes Chapman here..."
Deena
says, "So we have the materiality of the book and the materiality
of
the computer to consider--I begin to see why programming in
C++ is vital
to manipulate that materiality..."
Julianne
says, "Yes, I am a big fan of The Humument, how did that
go over
in the seminar?"
Katherine
says, "The Humument was one of the books we discussed,
and as usual,
it won a following immediately."
Julianne
says, "Great..."
Historical_Guest
says, "Pardon my ignorance, what's The Humument?"
Julianne
says, "A book by Tom Phillips in which he painted over
(and found
a new story in) a Victorian novel, simply by subtracting..."
Sue
says, "He bought old books and wrote all over them, drew
on them, blanked out words - all kinds of things. He did all
the things you're not supposed to do to books :)"
Katherine
says, "Wes, it's a wonderful artist book by John Phillips
that "Remediates" a Victorian novel by William Mallock
originally entitled "A Human Document." Phillips takes
each page and makes a painting out it, sometimes with the original
text partially visible, sometimes not, creating a complex interplay
between his narrative and Mallock's--great
stuff. . ."
Deena
says, "Hmmm...somewhat like John Cayley's North'rs?"
Julianne
says, "Well, not simply by subtracting. Has to be experienced
I
guess, sorry"
Deena
says, "So the as he changed the material of the books,
he changed
the story..."
Sue
says, "And the results were intriguing"
Historical_Guest
says, "Thanks"
Taos_Guest
says, "The art book that made the biggest impact on me
was Susan King's *Treading the Maze.* What struck me was that
she did not entirely abandon linearity. I am tired of people
woo-hooing about hypertext
as the end of linearity. Some lines are oppressive, true (I'm
a big
fan of Grace Paley's wonderful 1973 short story, ' A Conversation
with
my Father') but some lines are beautiful, too.""
Julianne
says, "I guess I 'll have to read Treading the Maze - thanks
Taos!"
Deena
says, "Taos, what linearity did you see in the hypertext
works?"
Michele
says, "You know, it would also be interesting to consider
how/if
at all the MOO interface has shifted our communication strategies."
Deena
says, ""Michele, how do you think it has changed our communication
strategies?"
Michele
says, "I mean instead of webct"
Julianne
thinks Michele has a point about the MOO, and wants to read
Michele's article about chat become virtual. Is there a URL?
Michele
says, "No, but it is available in the journal "Information,
Communication,
and Society." It also just came out in an Alison Adams edited
anthology called "Virtual Gender.""
Michele
says, "But I do think MOOing can create new interpatterned
forms
of group thinking."
Michele
says, "But don't we still use terms like "Look" in
order to experience
characters."
Michele
says, "You could also email me and I will send you a copy
when I
get "Home.""
Deena
says, "Yes, Michele, there are lots of graphical avatar
based chats...My
old computer won't go there, but I 'd like to try..."
Deena
says, "Is the death of linearity more prevalent in early
ht theory
and crit?"
Julianne
says, "Oooh not linearity - let's not go there"
Taos_Guest
says, "Deena, which hypertext works? They're all different.""
Katherine
says, "I agree there is linearity in a lot of electronic
hypertext;
for example, the opening narrative in Diana Slattery's "Glide"
is
entirely linear."
Deena
says, "Are there any examples of a completely non-linear
ht? I can't
think of one...What
do we mean by linear and nonlinear anymore?"
Jenny
[to Michele]: I agree with you, and I wonder how the shift to
a graphical
interface for the MOO will affect communication and community...
Katherine
says, "Well, I would say that "Reagan Library" comes
close."
Sue
says, "Well years ago I made a revolving text! But
that's been done a million times I 'm sure"
Taos_Guest
says, "Good question, Deena. Those terms--linear/non or
multi-linear--have
become puzzling to me, too.""
Sue
says, "And revolving things are also linear of course"
Michele
says, "Yes Jenny, I have been thinking about that."
C&W_Guest
says, "Michael's been putting together a site on Russian
poetry
that I for one am looking forward to seeing next week. Michael,
can you
say anything about your incorporation of visual images on the
site (we've
been talking about the perceived tensions between visual &
textual).
--Will"
Deena
says, "Michael, what is the URL for that site?"
Michael
Denner says, "Well, right now honestly I 'm multitasking
trying to fix something I screwed in the site." The
site's URL is russianpoetry.net"
Deena
says, "Right, even Reagan's Library has a linear "Line
of sight to
follow---"
Helen
says, "A circle is NOT a line in topographical terms"
Katherine
says, "I think Aarseth's discussion of this helps to clarify--also
Janet Murray's distinction between time of writing, time of
reading,
and the manifold of all possible readings as all lines or trajectories
to be followed."
Taos_Guest
says, "I think they're basically ideological terms. When
I say
I don't think we should abandon linearity in narrative, I feel
like I
also need to reassure people that I am not nor have I ever been
a Nazi.""
Deena
hands round buttons that assure everyone that __________ has
not been nor ever will be a ____
Katherine
says, "But narratives have evolved as they have for a reason;
there's
a case to be made that narrative has survived and flourished
because
it performs certain functions crucial in an evolutionary sense.
I
don't think it is going away anytime soon, just becoming more
complicated."
Taos_Guest
says, "Right on, Katherine.""
Deena
says, "In the syllabus, you talk about first and second
generation hypertexts--do you see patterns in the way that narratives
are becoming more
complicated?"
C&W_Guest
says, "Will here. Katherine, what do you mean by in an
evolutionary
sense?"
Aethers
has disconnected. The
housekeeper arrives to remove Aethers.
Helen
says, "That was the author of Fractured
who just left -- a coincidence
that he arrived just as I recommended his piece to you!"
Michele
says, "I still wonder how theories about reading texts
can and can't be applied to the "Visual." How does a viewer
read a painting differently than a book. Can we talk about linear
vs. non-linear readings. What about Barthes' Pleasure of the
Text...?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Yeah, I believe that evolutionary line...but is
linearity
crucial to what narrative does for the species? Cause and effect,
I 'd say, sure...but does that imply linearity?"
Taos_Guest
says, "Historical_Guest, those are big questions. Who could
know
what narrative does for the species?""
Deena
watches people come and go as connections flicker talking of
...
elizabeth
hangs onto the furniture in the attempt to stay put ...
Michele
nails down elizabeth
elizabeth
says, "Thanks Michele (ouch!)"
Michele
says, "Oh, a little virtual pain between characters..."
elizabeth
smiles at Michele
Katherine
says, "I don't think that causality necessarily implies
linearity,
for sure; in the real world most causality is not strictly linear.
So we can say that multicursal narratives are maybe analogous
to systems
theory and feedback loops in physical theories, trying to account
for
effects that feed back to affect causes, etc."
Deena
says, "How does this evolutionary line work? we have talked
a bit about
kids becoming more and more sophisticated (and at the same time,
reluctant
to read text/image as one thing... is this an evolution in the
way
we read write, think, or...?"
Cleo
says, "When I was in [visual art] grad school there was
an obsession
with text - not necessarily literal, but often implied text,
as gesture,
signifier, etc"
Historical_Guest
says, "Sorry, Katherine, you lost me...wouldn't ALL narrative
act as a kind of feedback loop, insofar as narratives of experience
are
constantly rewritten as necessary?"
Deena
passes around hammers and nails to all just to be fair about
it and to keep conversations and causality from floating too
far.
Michele
says, "Pain would be an interesting topic to explore in
terms of virtual communication. There is a pretty significant
DS community on MOOs. What is the difference between that form
of enactment and having your character get ripped apart by the
helicopter on Lambda?" ."
Katherine
says, "People have speculated what narrative does for the
species,
as Jerome Bruner does in his little book and also "Representing
Narratives."
Deena
says, "Historical, how are narratives constantly rewritten"
Katherine
says, "But some narratives are not re-written, only re-read
in
different ways."
Margaret
says, "I think art is linearity. Saying a work is not linear
because
the connecting lines form a complicated web is like saying a
piece
of tissue paper with two circular faces is not a cylinder because
it
is too thin"
Deena
says, "We've blurred the lines between media and text,
but I think
we have also blurred lines between reading and rewriting--did
the seminar
touch on these lines?"
Michele
says, "So how do we describe a linear art reading?"
Deena
says, "Katherine, seminar students, what are the most important
insights
you've gained from the course?"
Michael
Denner says, "I'd say I've really seen the future of art"
Historical_Guest
says, "I'm talking more about everyday narrative than about
recorded narrative...my impression is that the cog scientists
are
coming more and more to believe that narrative is a fundamental
part of
daily experience, the processing of information. But these narratives
change all the time."
Deena
says, "Historical, what kind of narratives? speech, electronic
writing,
chat rooms, ?"
Katherine
says, "Wes, the narratives change in their detail, but
cog sci people also talk about "Canonical stories," the
culturally specific ways in which a culture recognizes something
as counting as a narrative."
mike
x arrives.
Deena
says, "Hi Mike we are talking with students in the NEH
course literature on transition about ways narrative has changed
and insights gained
from the class."
Michael
Denner says, "And I've realized how radically different
it will be
(this is not to me an entirely positive expectation)"
Katherine
says, "We certainly did read the arguments of Landow
etc. on how
reading is also w/reading, that is a form of writing. But there
was criticism of this idea, too, because after all in a pre-scripted
text it is the author who controls what will be scripted."
Deena
says, "Katherine, what is w/reading?"
Katherine
says, "Well, w/reading as Landow etc uses it is a term
indicating
that the reader helps to construct the text through choice of
reading
paths and hence is in some sense also a writer."
C&W_Guest
says, "Michele, do you think that any of the film theory
discourse
about pain could be applied to electronic environments? (Will)"
Julianne
says, "Michele I've always assumed that what bdsm &
cyber|literature have in common is delight in playing with structure...hmmm.
You've given me an idea of more readers to reach out to."
Deena
passes out more licorice whips
Dene
says, "Thank you"
Historical_Guest
says, "Example: cut the corpus callosum and a person
who sees an orange with the left eye and a bird with the right
cannot describe the orange, because that requires the left side
of the brain...but the story they tell about the bird will incorporate
"Orange" elements."
Taos_Guest
says, "I've had lots of insights. Perhaps the biggest is
that
silicon and circuits are not opposed to the natural world, but
part of
it.""
Deena
says, "So this is akin to Espen
Aarseth's ergodic text from ergo to
work where we work at reading by choosing paths?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Katherine, are you talking about schema, more or
less?"
Cleo
says, " but that's an old idea - we [as readers] create [write]
the
text via interpretation, meaning."
Katherine
says, "It's a big thing with me to realize that technology
is "Natural"
in the sense that humans from the earliest days have always
been
into technology."
Deena
hands Taos back to Sand
and Soot to celebrate the understanding
Taos_Guest
says, "I cut my teeth on Birkerts--I think he still has
much to
say that is useful. But I don't think books and computers need
be part
of an either/or."
Deena
says, "Wait, where did the idea that technology and electronic
writing
were unnatural come from?"
Taos_Guest
says, "You know, Deena, I've asked myself where I got that
idea.
Of course, I knew that writing didn't appear by itself, that
it didn't
fall from the sky like rain, but I 've had this idea that book
culture
is more organic than computer culture. It's embarrassing, but
true.""
Helen
says, "Reiner Strasser, Dane,
geniwate, the ANAT people.... Michael
Atavar, several Norwegians...."
Editor's Note: I think ANAT is
Australian
Network for Art and Technology
Katherine
says, "We heard a fascinating presentation from Jay Douglas
at the Institute
for Creative Technology, a creation that brings together
Hollywood and the army, about how they are using autonomous
agent software to create narrative. This goes beyond the schema
as envisioned by Roger
Shank and also by Mark Turner etc. and uses more flexible algorithms
to create narratives."
Deena
says, "What distinctions did you see between books and
computers as
media? We started with early theorists basing crit on a print
media,
but now we seem to be circling back to that..."
Dene
says, "Who is Taos?"
Alice
arrives from Courtyard
Deena
says, "Hi Alice, we are talking with Katherine Hayles and
the NEH students
in Literature in transition, discussing the apparent dichotomy
between
books and computers as media"
Deena
says, "The ELO/trAce chat on July
15, 2001 was with Andrew Stern and
a.c. chapman,
who are experimenting with algorithms for user-driven narratives..."
Katherine
says, "One of the big distinctions for me between books
and computers is that the cognition in books is passive, while
the cognizing that goes on in computers is active. Right now
we are using only a tiny fraction of the computer's
power to generate narratives, but I expect this to change."
Deena
says, "What do you see in the future for electronic media
and criticism?
"
Katherine
says, "I would not say the dichotomy between books and
computers
is "Apparent." It is profound and extensive."
Katherine
says, "I think that in the near future we will see much
more of
multimedia criticism, which is even more nascent than electronic
literature."
Historical_Guest
says, "I can't believe that cognition of books is passive...wouldn't
the understanding of any text, no matter how linear, require
a reconstruction of a schema? That's the whole premise of active
learning."
Cleo
says, "I agree historical - I don't feel reading [books]
is passive
at all."
Deena
says, "What are the differences? and if books/computers
are not an
either/.or, what are they? How dothey relate to each other?"
Katherine
says, "I expect to see more use made of the computer's
cognizing
abilities in generating narratives, and more experimentation
in effectively
combining text with other electronic components, sound, visuals,
etc."
Deena
says, "So we are looking to make the computer a collaborative
author?"
Julianne
says, "As a computer geek I appreciate the theorists making
space
for us as the computers' power and capabilities increase, we'll
need
to give ourselves 'permission' to do art not just commerce"
Katherine
says, "It's one thing to say that the book is passive cognition,
and another to say that the reader is actively cognizing. Of
course
she is. But not the book as such."
Michael_Shumate
says, "Katherine, I 'm interested that you think multimedia
criticism is even more nascent than eliterature. It seems a
number of critics have claimed just the opposite, i.e., that
there is more hypertext criticism than hypertext literature."
Katherine
says, "Michael, how much truly multimedia criticism do
you know?
That is, criticism not about multimedia, but criticism which
itself uses
multimedia in an integral way?"
Deena
says, "The only one I can think of is the early writing
space or the
Labyrinth..."
Michael_Shumate
says, "Ah, I see the distinction you were making--I'd agree
with that case."
Alice
says, "Hi All, I am writing my thesis on the impact of
computer mediated
literature on the teaching of English Literature in British
universities
and wondered if anyone had any first hand experience concerning
the inclusion of hypertexts in literature courses?"
Sue
says, "Ah hello Alice!"
Deena
says, "Alice, hi, we are talking with students in Katherine
Hayles course
which is studying hypertexts in literature..."
Deena
says, "But this is a good question. Where do you see courses
like literature
in transition going? Will there be more NEH seminars like this?
More including electronic media into curriculums?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Alice, what kinds of things are you wondering about
specifically? I think lots of us teach hyperlit."
Alice
says, "Are the hypertexts studied part of a literature
course or a
medai oriented course?"
Deena
says, "Is it better to have a course devoted to electronic
media or
to integrate into a print course?"
Sue
says, "Historical, are you in the UK?"
Historical_Guest
says, "No, Sue"
Sue
says, "I think the problem lies in the UK"
Historical_Guest
says, "How so?"
Sue
says, "There are plenty of people teaching new media writing
in the US
but in the UK very few"
Katherine
says, "I would like to see both kinds of courses--on elit
and also
integrated into print courses."
Sue
says, "That is what Alice is investigating"
Alice
says, "I want to know how many Literature courses in Britain
include
the computerised forms of literature....why is Britain so far
behind?
...etc"
Michael
Denner arrives. Michael
Denner grinds teeth at having been kicked off again.
Michele
says, "Ouch Michael"
Deena
hands Michael a solid connection.
Taos_Guest
says, "I don't think there's anything passive about books.
Their
makers present you with fictions that you interpret--both writer
and
reader contribute something. But there is something different
in the
computer's power to think, and that was very apparent the day
that Jay
Douglas was here.""
Vika
says, "Sue, do you mean new media writing as in creative
writing using
new media, or works already created?"
Deena
says, "If elit is integrated into a lit course, how do
you handle distinctions
between the media?"
Historical_Guest
says, "What distinctions?"
Alice
says, "It's not really the writing I am so concerned with
as the teaching
of analysis in the ways that print forms of literature are taught
on Literature courses in Britain."
Sue
says, "Vika - both"
Deena
says, "Taos, how will elit use the computer's power to
think in the
future?"
Katherine
says, "I would very much like to make distinctions between
media
part of the theoretical discussions in such a course. The strategy
would
be to encourage students to realize that PRINT is also a medium!"
Alice
says, "Why shouldn't we be able to compare and contrast
books across
media? Why are Literati so concerned with the medium and not
the writing
itself?"
Deena
says, "And that print is a medium that can also be manipulated?
ala
art books"
Cleo
says, "But the programmer designs the software [and someone
the hardware]
that makes the computer 'think" - it's 'cognizing' is in his/her
image."
Helen
says, "Print is many media..."
Sue
says, "The point I always make is that in art, we teach
Art and History
of Art, but in English - in the UK at any rate - we only teach
History
of English"
Katherine
says, "I think that the computer's cognizing power will
be tapped
to create narrative itself, or at least components of the narrative,
through intelligent agent software, so that the narrative is
emergent."
Sue
says, "And since hypertext ain't history yet - it has not
been blessed
by time and recognition - we don't teach it"
Cleo
says, "Hail Alice?"
Cleo
says, "Sorry, I meant: !"
Julianne
says, "Taos, yes I waffle between Katherine's own 'cyber|literature'
with a pipe between the two - did you use that term this summer
- and 'networked
and programmable media' not sure whose term that is but I heard
Cayley use it first - BOTH of them emphasize the computer's
power to
think."
Deena
says, "Actually, Helen, that may be where I am tripping
up. Computers
are many media, too--it is hard to get an aggregate class and
say these
are the properties of computer media or of print media."
Historical_Guest
says, "Galatea 2.2...it's ALIVE!"
Deena
says, "Historical, what is Galatea ?"
Katherine
says, "Alice, I wonder what you mean when you say compare
books
"across media." As far as I am concerned, the book is one
kind of technology,
one kind of medium, with properties that can be extensively
explored, played with, etc. But it is entirely different from
computers, even when the screen is arranged so as to suppress
this recognition."
Historical_Guest
says, "A novel by Richard Powers...about an artificial
intelligence
who fails one kind of Turing test but passes a more basic one."
Alice
says, "Is it because there isn't enough existing criticism
available.
The teaching of literature has become so reliant on all the
criticisms
and works surrounding the actual object of study that we can't
teach
without this peripheral stuff?"
Deena
says, "Katherine, how is the screen arranged to suppress
recognizing that
we can play with the media?"
Katherine
says, "We are starting a new media center here at UCLA
with the
acronym SINAPS--Simulations, Interfaces and Networks in Advanced
Programmable
Systems. That is more accurate, I think, than talking only about
the digital computer with a GUI interface."
Michele
says, "Interesting Katherine."
Vika
says, "Galatea
is also a piece of interactive fiction with a strong
'non-playing-character' - another kind of 'intelligence' exploration."
Deena
says, "Vika, do you have that URL handy?"
Vika
waves a URL http://emshort.home.mindspring.com/galatea.htm
Michele
says, "I liked the waving of URLs"
Historical_Guest
says, "Thanks, Vika...interesting...any connections with
the Powers novel?"
Vika
says, "Historical - don't know for sure, but doubt it.
It's an original
piece, as far as I know"
Katherine
says, "Well, take a look at the William
Blake Archive. Its rhetoric
and mode of presentation are all intended to make us think we
are
reading Blake in print. "
Deena
says, "Katherine, what roles will media centers play in
introducing
electronic lit to universities?"
Deena
says, "Alice and Sue, are there plans to have media centers
in British
Universities?"
Helen
says, "Well, it's bedtime here, and I wish I could stay
awake longer
-- but I 'll have to read the log. Night, folks..."
Cleo
says, "Goodnight Helen -" Helen
has disconnected.
Sue
says, "Can you define media centre?"
Deena
says, "Yes, could you describe the media center Katherine?"
Katherine
says, "I think the main way that electronic literature
is going
to be introduced to universities is through courses."
Deena
says, "Has this seminar helped show ways that elit can
be taught?"
Katherine
says, "SINAPS will function somewhat like a humanities
center--space
and fellowships and such--but it will also be a meta-center
with
the mandate to connect events at the all the other centers on
campus that
want to partner with us."
ALICE
quietly enters. ALICE
says, "Sorry I got disconnected"
Katherine
says, "And not just events but other kinds of digital resources
streamed from the SINAPS server."
Deena
says, "Hi again Alice, we are still discussing ways to
teach elit in courses..."
Sue
says, "Ah ok, I doubt if most UK unis can afford that"
Sue
says, "But maybe it will happen eventually"
Michael_Shumate
says, "I think readings could also help intro universities
to e-lit. I don't know if the ELO could help in this way--reading
tours?"
Deena
says, "Reading tours and conferences are really important--
maybe ELO
and trAce can organize some?"
Taos_Guest
says, "When does SINAPS get going?""
Historical_Guest
says, "Or most unis anywhere! "
Sue
says, "The problem in the UK is that the faculty are not
media literate"
ALICE
says, "Why are the faculty so resistant to change?"
Deena
says, "Katherine, what were the goals in the NEH course?"
Vika
says, "Sue - I've found a large humanities computing contingent
in the
UK - well, alright, in London..."
Cleo
says, "Age/change - you hate what you don't understand"
Historical_Guest
says, "And let's face it--becoming even semi-literate WRT
computers is a LOT of work."
mike_x
says, "Bye all... "
The housekeeper arrives to remove mike_x.
Sue
says, "Vika which uni? Westminister? UCL?"
Vika
says, "Sue - King's College London, UCL, at least two or
three others,
can't remember names off the top of my head... the latest ACH/ALLC
joint
conference (will get url in a moment) had a strong British contingent.
Ach.org, allc.org, and also The
2001 Joint International Conference of the Association for Computers
and the Humanities and the Association for Literary and Linguistic
Computing"
Sue
says, "Yes Vika - but which depts are they in? I doubt
if they were in English depts."
Michael_Shumate
says, "The readings at HT 2000 were really eye-opening
for
me, esp. for The
Unknown and Rob Kendall's 'Penetration'"
Katherine
says, "The goals of the NEH seminar are to let folks discuss
theoretical
readings, some elit creative texts, and pedagogy. "
C&W_Guest
says, "Will here. Katherine, do you know to what extent
libraries were
purchasing hypertexts such as the Westgate products?"
C&W_Guest
says, "Will-- I meant Eastgate.
. . East/West, Left/Right, so confusing.
. ."
Deena
says, "Some of Eastgate's works are required reading in
Australia.
. .Patchwork
Girl and Samplers"
ALICE
says, "Michael do you have a URL for the talks or are they
not online?"
ALICE
says, "I meant readings"
Vika
says, "Not sure, Sue. Many of them certainly have strong
English-language
lit background."
Michael_Shumate
says, "Talks? I 'm not sure what you mean."
elizabeth
says, "I have to go too. Goodbye and thanks for interesting
discussion"
elizabeth
has disconnected.
Michele
pulls out the nails
Sue
says, "Vika, sounds good."
Vika
says, "But they work across sub-disciplines in the humanities."
Sue
says, "Cultural studies perhaps?"
Sue
says, "I know a lot of people who write about digital media."
Deena
says, "Would this seminar work with universities and other
settings
where people are not as familiar with hypertexts already?"
Sue
says, "But fewer in the UK who do it in a literary sense
and understand
it as literature."
Alice
says, "So will Eng Lit have to compete with Cultural Studies
or will
it be integrated in some way? Literature courses in Britain
are so far
behind the times"
Deena
says, "Hi Zeit Guest, we are talking with Katherine Hayles
and her students
in Literature in transition"
Michael_Shumate
says, "Oh. well, I think The
Unknown incorporates a few readings in Real Audio, though
it doesn't really capture what it was like live. at www.unknownhypertext.com"
Katherine
says, "Well, this program is funded by the NEH and so it
has particular
characteristics. In general, however, I think that a seminar
designed as an introduction to electronic literature would be
a great thing.
I have some colleagues here who would take such a seminar."
Zeit_Guest_
says, "Hi... "
Deena
says, "I am developing a course on women and electronic
lit for the
University of Denver, so that would be interesting to compare..."
Michele
says, "Katherine, how would you do this differently if
the funding wasn't
from the NEH?"
Historical_Guest
says, "I wonder, Sue. Everyone I know who works on e-lit
here in the US has to struggle with the "You work on what?"
response.
I 'm not sure it's so different."
Michael_Shumate
says, "Duke bought several Eastgate works, over 6 years
ago
now. There has been no followup ..."
Deena
says, "WHAT issues came up in the class that were unexpected?
What
new things did you discover?"
Sue
says, "Good point historical"
Zeit_Guest_
says, "What is 'literature in transition'?"
Dene
says, "We are still buying Eastgate lit"
Katherine
says, "Well, if the funding wasn't from NEH, I think I
would try
to target an audience that was more focused, for example, just
beginning,
more advanced, etc."
Deena
says, "Yes, libraries don't have the materials to develop
or maintain
archives. We had a chat about this last year and will probably
have
another in the winter about how to get libraries to archive
and keep these
ephemeral works.."
Zeit_Guest_
says, "Enlighten me ""
Dene
says, "For graduate students and fyc comp courses"
Deena
says, "Good point. How did you define literature in transition
and
why was that the focus of the course?"
Katherine
says, "There is going to be a real problem with this archival
issues.
I have most of the early Eastgate titles and now they won't
play
on the computers we have."
Deena
says, "Dene, who is we? and how are people checking it
out, etc?"
Dene
says, "Deena, in significant ways. As I mentioned earlier.
. . character."
Michele
says, "Sorry, how would it be more focused?"
Katherine
says, "By "Literature in Transition, " I meant the
way that 21st
century literature, and older or "Heritage" literatures,
are going to
be affected by electronic technologies."
Deena
says, "Dene, C&W, other seminar students, what does
literature in transition
mean to you? How are we transforming lit?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Good point, Katherine. And it's no picnic porting
something
from, say, HyperCard to something more current."
Deena
says, "Yes, I have refused to translate my Marble
Springs from HyperCard...I now go
around showing it on old Mac Classics in museums.."
Historical_Guest
says, "Deena, really refused? Not just not wanting to put
in the huge effort? Why?"
Deena
says, "Yes. It would be a 4 year effort to port the thing,
and I don't
want to spend the time..."
Deena
ends her rantings and passes around more Guinness for all
Historical_Guest
hands Deena a consoling aspirin
Deena
thanks Historical and knocks it all back.
The
housekeeper arrives to cart elizabeth off to bed.
Michele
says, "I think my question is more about the shifts in
writing and
the identity of the crafter..."
Dene
says, "All components of what we used to call elements
of fiction are
shifting"
Cleo
says, "'Rich lit" as Talan would say."
Editor's
Note: Talan Memmott
Michele
says, "But one of my main interests is the ways that
spectatorship
is shaped in different online settings."
Dene
says, "This holds great significance for the way we read
and teach it"
Deena
says, "Michele, could you repeat your question?"
Michele
says, "Which one?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Gotcha"
Michele
says, "Which way did it go?"
Deena
says, "Also, the work would be completely different and
would need
to be rewritten--the problem with manipulating computers as
media is
that you are then stuck with that particular computer, program,
and software--even
when it becomes obsolete..."
C&W_Guest
says, "Literature has always been in transition. What's
interesting
to me is that in which literature shifts as new forms appear
in the
medial ecology. Surely computers and electronic technologies
would change
our view of literature even if no one was writing hyper/cybertexts
per
se. --Country Western"
Deena
says, "Michele, which way did the shifts go? How are characters
changing?
how are plots changing?"
Cleo
says, "I think that, eventually, there will be software
programs that
perform the task of updating/transcribing"
Sue
says, "I have to go now folks"
Katherine
says, "That's true, but with elit, the penetration goes
beyond
thematics into how the text is actually produced by the codes."
Sue
says, "Thanks for an interesting discussion"
Katherine
says, "Thanks to you , Sue. Thanks for dropping in."
Historical_Guest
says, "Ciao Sue"
Sue
says, "Bye Katherine, Deena and everyone else"
Sue
goes home.
Michele
says, "Well, I am more interested in describing how I am
interested
for instance in how the gaze might be shifted in certain settings."
Deena
says, "That reminds me of the speech at DAC--that painted
a picture of writing on the computer without the elit movement...how
doyou think computers would change our perspective if no one
were playing with what
computers can do in text/image/motion/media?"
Michele
says, "Bye Sue"
Cleo
says, "Hmmm..."
Deena
says, "Yes, we normally wrap up in about an hour, but this
has been
so fascinating I've lost track of time..."
Michele
says, "Um, but don't those actions happen in most online
"Communities?""
Katherine
says, "Well, I think there would be much less speculation
on how
computers are actually a medium affecting human subjectivity
and not
just a tool."
Deena
says, "Are there any other insights from the course, thoughts
we should
cover?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Patterns of reading would be quite different, for
one thing...people expect to browse on a computer, not consume
the whole,
and that carries over to print."
Deena
says, "Hmmm...Katherine, has elit helped shape our perceptions
of the computer
as a medium that affects our subjectivity?"
Michele
says, "I wonder if browsing is too easy a word to use for
online
communication"
Katherine
says, "I think another important point is how the underlying
assumptions
have changed between first and second generation hypertexts."
Historical_Guest
says, "Amen to that, Katherine!"
Deena
hands out surf boards and fast browsers to all
Michele
says, "I propose "Blundering" in a recent article.
To
once again badly quote myself."
Deena
says, "Blundering to mean what?"
Michael_Shumate
says, "Thanks for an interesting afternoon, folks. And
thanks
for arranging/hosting, Deena. I 'll see you seminarians on Wednesday
night."
Michael_Shumate
leaves to go for a walk with his wife.
The
housekeeper arrives to remove Michael_Shumate.
Cleo
says, "Indeed - for instance, I have an utterly different
sense of [the
passage of] time now"
Katherine
says, "Well, take for example "Lexia
to Perplexia."
It's all about
how humans are becoming hybrid creatures, inconceivable apart
from
the technology that forms them."
Michele
says, "The experience of how we encounter online materials."
Deena
says, "So the works themselves are exploring these notions
of computer
as media merging with our subjectivity?"
Historical_Guest
says, "That would be true of all generations of e-lit,
wouldn't
it? So what assumptions specifically have changed?"
Cleo
says, " I think that really depends on the spec. work"
Katherine
says, "Look at "Afternoon"
compared to "Lexia
to Perplexia."
What's
different? Almost everything, I would say. "Afternoon"
has more
in common with a traditional print novel than it does with "Lexia,"
even
though both are electronic texts."
Deena
says, "I think we are only seeing the beginning--as we
learn to think
about ways to use the computer as a thinking media, we will
see more
and more of these hybrids, more and more of these shifts..."
Historical_Guest
says, "I haven't read "Lexia
to Perplexia." How is it different?"
Rita_Raley
arrives from Courtyard
Deena
says, "Which really points out the differences in generations--even
though the works are only 10 years apart!"
Katherine
says, "For example, in ""Lexia
to Perplexia", screen action and screen design carry part
of the meaning. In "Afternoon,"
screen design looks like a page of print, and there is no distinction
visually between one screen and another."
Deena
says, "Hi Rita, we are talking with Katherine Hayles and
her students in Literature in Transition and looking at ways
we look at computers" Katherine says, "Also in "Lexia,"
the animations, rollovers and mouse
overs create an occluded text, suggesting that the human reader
is only one
possible reader, reminding us constantly that the computer is
also a reader."
Rita_Raley
says, "Hi, all - better late than never?"
C&W_Guest
says, "Will, aka C&W guest says hi to Rita"
C&W_Guest
says, "Deena, it's amusing in this seminar to hear people
talk
about 1996 as if it were eons ago"
Katherine
says, ""Afternoon" is primarily narrative, "Lexia"
is at least
as much visual as it is narrative."
Deena
says, "Yeah, my Marble Springs is ancient and yet...!"
Michele
says, "You were alive in 96"
Deena
hands round time unbenders so we can see real time
Michele
says, "I was just a virtual shadow"
Cleo
says, "That's what I mean about this so intensely shifting
our time sensibility."
Historical_Guest
says, "OK, I see what you mean. Do the guard fields count
as "Screen actions," though? If so, aren't the ASSUMPTIONS
similar, even if the later text is more graphical? And how about
Uncle
Buddy?"
Deena
says, "I still have the notes from my 96 works on my wall!"
ALICE
has disconnected.
Deena
says, "So in Lexia, we see computers as readers, in interactive
fiction
we see computers as writers... are we shifting to this hybrid
outside
of Lexia?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Hey, my 1996 work just came out..."
Deena
says, "Ahh--which work?"
Michele
says, "Oh, well mine probably still hasn't!"
Deena
says, "We are still trying to get Dickey's 1988 work published!!!"
Historical_Guest
says, "Turning
In. Feels like someone else wrote it."
Katherine
says, "No, the assumptions of "Afternoon"
are basically that you
move from one screen of text to another, as if turning a page.
OK, some
two or three pages are like uncut pages; you can't get to them
without
fulfilling a condition. But in "Lexia," the underlying
metaphor is
no longer turning a page to get to another page. The whole metaphor
has
changed to a radically topographic one, of exploring surface
and depth
in dynamic and constantly changing proportions."
Deena
says, "Do you have a URL or pub data"
Jenny
leaves.
Historical_Guest
says, "Eastgate"
Deena
says, "This goes back to the early lit crit on theory as
based on
print..."
Historical_Guest
says, "OK, how about Intergrams? is that an early or a
late work?"
Deena
says, "It seems as though the shift is away from page and
into the
new media--somewhat like the shift in cinema away from stage
and into
the
film scenes..."
Deena
says, "Yes, Jim's basic formula remains the same--which
generating would
this be?"
Historical_Guest
says, "Are we back to print/graphics again? Is the basic
difference one of the density of graphic centrality?"
Julianne
says, "Wes/Historical, this is great news, can't wait to
read it..."
Deena
says, "I know my work has changed from a page based system
where I
equated a page with a part of a structure to an entire structure
based
system--e:electrons is based only on the periodic table of elements
rather
than a page-base system"
Historical_Guest
says, "Well, it sure looks ancient..be forewarned...:-)"
Deena
says, "SO our underlying metaphors are changing rapidly.."
Michele
says, "I wonder how the conventions of the theory/academic
material
have changed."
Historical_Guest
says, "I want to say that our literacies are changing..."
Deena
throws congratulatory balloons into the air for Wes Chapman's
Turning
In
Historical_Guest
says, "Aw shucks"
Julianne
reassures Historical that they won't hold the 96ishness against
it
Deena
says, "How have these changes in underlying metaphor affected
changes
in literacy?"
Julianne
says, "And I've just ordered Michele's essay in Virtual
Gender,
so Taos, do you have a URL?"
Katherine
says, "Hey Wes, congratulations from me too. Great news."
Deena
says, "Are there other URLs or works to share?"
Cleo
says, "I think the underlying metaphor [form] has changed
immensely
- I know I 'm very aware of 'pretending' when I work towards
a [trad.] book
form in hypertext now, whereas when I began it was really all
I knew
and thus a matter of course."
Michele
says, "Wow, thanks...I would have mailed you a copy."
Rita_Raley
says, "I see at least one change in theoretical convention,
visible
to an extent in our recent conversations about "Medium-specific
analysis":
I think there has been a reaction against the perceived immateriality
of high theory."
Historical_Guest
says, "Re literacies...if narrative is fundamental to cognition,
and so is a visual aesthetic, then the combination leads to...what?
Some basic restructuring of our cognitive processing of experience.
What Prensky talks about in Digital Game Based Learning"
Deena
thinks again about the immateriality material of the computer
screen
Rita_Raley
says, "2 -and a turning away from the early links set up between
PS theory and hypertext"
Deena
says, "What is PS theory?"
Katherine
says, "Narrative re-creates in a cognitive realm the experience
of moving in a complex, changing, three-dimensional environment--when
that combines with visual simulation of the same, it packs a
double whammy."
Rita_Raley
says, "Poststructuralist theory - high theory is probably
the
more accurate term"
Historical_Guest
says, "It has to be more than just a doubling, though,
doesn't
it? Aren't there interference patterns between the two kinds
of
processing?"
Deena
says, "Then when you shift the underlying metaphor of narrative
away
from paper and books, you create a triple whammy--as the structure
itself
ads a simulation of metaphor and meaning..."
Deena
gets lost again in the shifting sands of literature
Katherine
says, "I think that visual and cognitive processing happen
in different
parts of the brain. So there would be all kinds of complications
in connecting them. . ."
Deena
now gets the brain and the computer thoughts intertwingled
Historical_Guest
says, "Yes, good point--is structure a third term, or a
part of the other two?"
Deena
says, "Structure is definitely more than underlying meaning---"
Katherine
says, "Seems like structure cuts across, and as Deena says,
also
strongly interacts with narrative and visuals"
Deena
says, "Underlying meaning"
Cleo
says, "And these areas touching off different parts/processes
of the
brain."
Deena
says, "Yes, I think it is literally stimulating a different
part of
the brain."
Historical_Guest
says, "But is structure a different mode of cognition than
visual or narrative? Literally working in a different part of
the brain?"
Katherine
says, "Right, because in the case of hypertext, structure
is often
linked with kinesthetic/cognitive actions on the part of the
reader."
Deena
says, "Yeah, it defines in a way the narrative and visual..
the structure
in computer works is akin to the linear notions in print works."
Historical_Guest
says, "Ah--kinesthesia. I 'm starting to think that's not
just a metaphor. "
Katherine
says, "Well, not ONLY a metaphor, anyway."
Deena
says, "I would love to do a user test of some hypertexts
under and
MRI to see which part is stimulated where"
Julianne
says, "Yes let's!"
Katherine
says, "Wish we had Diana Slattery online now to talk about
her
concept of visual language."
Deena
says, "Kinesthesia is a part of symbiociation--the integrating
of meaning
from movement, images, narrative, etc."
Historical_Guest
says, "Haven't heard the word "Symbiociation" before..what's
that?"
Deena
says, "Its my neologism to explain the metaphor/meaning
infused in
these triple whammies of text narrative, imagery, animation,
motion, and
structure."
Cleo
says, "They cost too much!"
Historical_Guest
says, "Me too--but there would definitely be interference
on account of the noise! :-)"
Julianne
says, "Katherine may we quote you on the double whammy
- or which
of your works should we read for more on this?"
Deena
Makes a note to get Diana to a chat on visual language...
Katherine
says, "Maybe noise is just information too complex for
us to understand.
. ."
Deena
hands out coupons for free MRIs and Cat scans..until her cat
objects...
Cleo
says, "But hasn't that been tapped via movies before? The
interactive
element is, IMHO, the really interesting and unique thing about
this
form"
Katherine
says, "Julianne, Gosh, double whammy doesn't sound very
intellectual,
does it? Check out "Media Specific Analysis for more on
this.
Forthcoming this fall from "Poetics Today" but I can send
you a copy.
. ."
Julianne
says, "Katherine that would be very kind: jchatATworld.std.com
Cleo
says, "Katherine, will you be doing a seminar like this
again/in the
future?"
Deena
hands round enough whammies for everyone for a lifetime
Deena
nods and says Oh, yes, please.
Julianne
says, "Katherine then I won't quote the double whammy sentence,
but will read the article!"
Katherine
says, "Hard to say, Cleo. They are competitive and the
NEH makes
the decision."
Deena
says, "I hope the students will advocate for more of these
courses!"
Katherine
says, "They aren't really students. They are participants,
along
with me. We are all in this together!"
Julianne
says, "Well thank you to Katherine, Deena, Helen, everyone
for the
things they do 'for the field' - and the rest of you whose work
I am
not yet familiar with - "
Cleo
says, "I very much like the idea of learning/thinking/interacting
virtually,
so please let me know if you do."
Deena
says, "The ELO site does list where online courses are
offered for
hypertext and elit"
Michele
says, "Um, thanks Katherine!"
Deena
says, ""We really should wrap up--I keep getting caught
up in the conversation!
Thanks Katherine and students for making this chat and revelations
possible."
Vika
says, "Yes, thanks all for great conversation."
Cleo
says, "Indeed."
Michele
says, "I have been meaning to attend these events...this
was great
motivation!"
Julianne
says, "So long everyone!" The
housekeeper arrives to remove Julianne.
Michele
says, "If only I could remember my character name..."
Katherine
has disconnected.
Historical_Guest
says, "Thanks to all, and see ya..."
Deena
says, "You guys covered a lot of ground in the course,
and it was great
hearing and exploring these insights on theory, , the future
of elit,
and the universe and 42 and all..."
The
housekeeper arrives to remove Vika, Katherine, Historical_Guest.
Michele
says, "Yes, thanks Deena for spending time with us."
Rita_Raley
says, "Hmm, anyone want to tell me what I missed, in a
few lines?"
Deena
says, "We will have a chat Aug
19 3 pm central time
on the state of elit world
wide...please join us..."
Michele
says, "Stuff"
Cleo
says, "Ask Deena about how to access the log Rita."
Deena
says, "Hmmm...Rita, I 'll have the archive up this week...
at http://www.eliterature.org/com/index.shtml"
Michele
says, "Might be later for me. I move to Ohio in mid-August."
Deena
says, "We keep pretty good logs for these..."
C&W_Guest
says, "Thanks to all (croons country ballad)"
Michele
says, "Hey I still want to know what C&W stands for..."
Deena
says, "Thanks C&W, all students, and all participants"
Deena
throws roses and insights to all
Deena
passes around Geniuses for the road
Everdeen
says, "Thanks all...see you down the hi-way...bye!"
Cleo
says, "Lol! geniuses!"
The
housekeeper arrives to remove C&W_Guest.
Michele
says, "Bye"
Everdeen
has disconnected.
Deena
says, "Bye and thanks for coming!"
Michele
has disconnected.
The
housekeeper arrives to remove Michele,Taos_Guest,Cleo.
Dene
says, "Thanks, Deena. I may be on the road back to Dallas
next Sunday,
but if not, I will try to make it"
Deena
says, "Terrific, I hope to see you then"
Rita_Raley
says, "Thanks, Deena - sorry to be so late. Traffic on
the 405
was _awful_ (beach goers)"
Dene
nods
Dene
waves goodbye
Deena
says, "Rita, I know how traffic goes.. glad you could make
it."
Dene
bows politely
Rita_Raley
says, "Me, too - I look forward to seeing the archives."
--
End log: Sunday, August 5, 2001 3:24:02 am CDT
