-- Start
log: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:28:02 pm CST
Helen drops Welcome Note 16th February
2003.
Kepple arrives from trAce
.....Helen and Kepple practice MOO commands....
cahoots, Dryad (Everdeen), MazThing, Dene, trusty (Jean),
runran, Salmon (Katherine) arrive
Helen says, "Hello and welcome"
Dene smiles
Salmon says, "hi, it's katherine :)"
Dene says, "Hi, katherine, Helen"
Salmon smiles and waves to all and sundry
Helen says, "Hello Katherine, glad to see you"
Salmon says, "hi, helen, & dene.. thanks for
this!"
trusty says, "Hi Jonathan... trusty is Jean"
Helen says, "Hi Jean"
trusty says, "Hi all! "
Dene waves
Helen says, "I know we have a few seasoned MOOers
here today. Before I introduce our guests, can I ask
everyone to indicate how much they know about MOOs with
a quick Experienced, beginner or whatever?"
Helen is fairly experiences - comes a lot, but not a
good programmer!
Deena arrives.
Helen says, "Hi Deena"
Dryad says, "Experienced (Everdeen Tree, Houston,
Texas)"
Dene waves at Deena
Deena comes running in, saying hi to all
cahoots says, "experienced (jane tandy, london,
uk)"
Kepple says, "I know more than I did half an hour
ago""
MazThing is 3 years, 7 months, and 22 days old. It programs
sometimes here and there.
Salmon still can't make head nor tail out the programmer's
manual, but has been programming for three years
Dene says, "experienced"
Salmon waves at deena
cahoots [to Salmon]: "no one makes head or tail
of the programmer's manual. it's there to lead us astray
Salmon grins at cahoots (Lurking with intent).
trusty says, "Hi Ev (I forgot how to page)"
Helen says, "OK, we don't have to start too basic,
then. Kepple, ask questions if you need to! We love
telling people how to play around - I mean write seriously
- in MOOs :)"
Deena says, "How are you using programmed bots
in the MOO environment?""
Sue arrives.
Deena says, "Hi Sue"
Helen says, "Shall we start by introducing our
two guests?"
Dene nods
Sue says, "Hi Deena sorry I'm a bit late"
Helen says, "Katherine Parrish is a graduate student
in Computer Applications in Education at the University
of Toronto. She recently lost her soul to a"
Helen says, "...Markov Chain and is trying endless
permutations and recombinations in order to get it back.
Sometimes these attempts result in poetry. Katherine
is also an educational co-ordinator and Wizard on Project
Achieve, an educational MOO. Achieve is home to the
MOOlipo-a MOO experiment in Oulipian text-generative
processes. At the recent New Media Poetry conference,
Katherine outlined her vision of MOOs as sites of poetic
expression and inquiry. She is also the project co-ordinator
for poetrix: a new MOO core & community designed
to support digital poetics."
Helen says, "Dene Grigar is an Associate Professor
of English at Texas Woman's"
Helen says, "University and specializes in interactive
arts, Greek literature and"
Helen says, "culture, rhetoric, and feminist theory.
Her book New Worlds, New Words: Exploring Pathways In
and About Electronic Environments (with John Barber,
Hampton Press, 2001) speculates about the ways in which
writing and thinking change when moved to electronic
environments, such as the World Wide Web, MOOs, and
email. She is the founder of two virtual spaces, TWUMOO
and Nouspace, and was the 2001 recipient of TWU's "Innovation
in Academia Award'' in the field of computer science.
Also in 2001 she attended a National Endowment for the
Humanities Summer Seminar at UCLA led by N. Kathryn
Hayles, a study that focused on electronic literature.
In the fall 2002, she began a one year post-doctoral
study with the Center of Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive
Arts-Science Technology and Art Research (CAiiA-STAR)
in the area of hypermedia and interactive arts."
Helen says, "Got it all in!"
Deena surreptitiously hands round markov chains and
copies of poetrix along with lemonade and cookies.
Dene says, "I will be in Wales this Summer:)"
Dene says, "hope to see you, Helen"
Deena applauds our guests
Helen says, "Dene was the first person to defend
her Dissertation in a MOO"
Salmon grins.
Salmon says, "history in the making!"
Dene says, "has anyone else done it since? Does
anyone know?"
Espea_Rundle arrives from Helen's Virtual Office
Helen says, "I'd be interested to know...."
Dene says, "It would be good to begin putting together
more global notes on it"
Dene says, "to look for patterns"
Salmon nods in agreement.
Helen says, "One thing that struck, me reading
your original statements - posted on the trAce site
and in the welcome note if anyone wants to see them
- is that both of you were inspired by Amy Bruckman"
Dene says, "are we recording?"
Deena says, "Hi Espea, we are talking with Dene
Grigar and Katherine Parrish, MOO writers. Dene did
her dissertation in a MOO."
Helen says, "She started MOOSE Crossing"
Dene says, "yes"
Dene says, "who influenced her? Anyone know?"
cahoots says, "sherry turkle?"
Salmon nods, I noticed that too.."
Salmon says, "seymour papert.."
Helen says, "What was it about what she said that
inspired you and got you into a MOO?"
Dene says, "I got the feeling that Turkle was not
a big MOOer"
Dene says, "it was the environment that got my
attentioin"
Dene says, "I saw all kinds of possibilities"
Salmon says, "for me, it was a combination of her
enthusiasm- she just exuded excitement"
Salmon says, "and the palpable sense of the material
nature of the experience in moos"
Helen says, "The material nature of a virtual space?"
Dene says, "MOOs make the medium's material very
obvious "
Salmon agrees with Dene.
Dene says, "that is a bit of what I will talk about
today in light of teacing with them"
Deena says, "Dene, Salmon, what do you mean by
making the medium obvious?"
MazThing . o O ( perhaps so if you know how things are
happening or how the text is made....maybe to others,
it's as mysterious as...light...or paint or song is
to some )
Espea_Rundle says, "Hi everyone"
Dene says, "I made some slides about that"
Helen says, "Katherine you say "much of writing
and the teaching of it is driven by the joy of creating
worlds out of words." That's what has always attracted
me - the chance to create a world"
Espea_Rundle says, "Hi everyone nice to join you.
Hi Deena are you still in Aus?"
Salmon [to Dene]: go for it!
Helen says, "Go Dene,"
Salmon nods at Helen.
Salmon smiles at Espea_Rundle.
Dene says, "okay"
-----------------------------------Dene-------------------------------
I want to pick up on something Pauline said in her post
(in response to my position statements). Her comment
was that MOOs dont teach students how to write (or think)
better but differently.
She is right. And it makes me ponder the
skills we are teaching students when we use MOOs for
teaching.
Dene says, "can you see it?"
Espea_Rundle says, "I'm still becoming familiar
with MOOs and am still finding it a bit confusing, I
have to admit."
Dene says, "can you see the slide?"
Salmon nods, "I can see it."
.........See Dene's Slides......
Helen says, "How do we write differently
in MOOs?"
Salmon [to Helen]: well, as a number of the respondents
in the forum noted, it really depends..
Helen shares the Forum Discussion URL.
http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=283.
Salmon says, "someone astutely noted that it depends
on how you approach the moo"
Salmon says, "i always think that the way people
define the moo is very revealing"
Helen says, "If you are using it to teach writing
of a certain kind, then the writing won't be different
- but does the MOO environment change the way we write
as soon as we start really exploring it?"
Salmon says, "do they call it a community.. an
environment.. a discourse?"
Helen says, "It can be all those things, Salmon,
at different times"
Helen says, "How do you most often define it?"
Salmon says, "well, yes.. but each moo, i think,
and each person, in there interactions, will foreground
certain elements"
D eena is on a shaky connection at a downtown mcdonalds...sorry
for popping in and out.
Salmon says, "you have very realistic immersive
environments, for example"
Salmon [to Helen]: heh.. very carefully, and with many
caveats..
Salmon says, "but i am most interested right now..."
Salmon says, "i'm interested in writing in moos
that oscillates between the two - the immersive and
the material, that never lets you forget for a moment
that you are dealing with language."
MazThing smiles quietly.
Salmon says, "poetry tends to foreground language's
materiality. the shape and feel and look of the words
as words- the word as such."
Salmon says, "not that other writing doesn't do
this also.."
Dene says, "it is when we talk our students outside
of their normal dimension that they can begin to think
outside the box"
Salmon says, "but we understand when we come to
a poem, that we must pay attention to those things"
Helen says, "The Web is more of the same, but in
MOOs.... the dialogue possibilities too, (another thing
Maz pointed out in
the discussion forum)"
Dene says, "Moos are another type of dimenion,
functioning at the 3rd level"
D eena says, "How do you get people interested
in the immersive and the material? in the dialogue possibilities
inherent in the MOOs?"
D eena2 has been peeking at the stray questions on the
right hand side.
Dene says, "not everyone does, Deena"
Salmon [to Deena]: good question.. and i think that's
one thing we're trying to answer with poetrix
Dene says, "some people are not comnfortable with
the switch"
Helen says, "Newcomers often just play around being
"silly" - only some of them ever go on to
create more interesting things"
D eena says, "Salmon I missed poetrix. Is there
a URL?""
MazThing bridles at the concept that silly isn't serious
too.
cahoots sides with maz
Dene says, "this MOO is a web"
Salmon says, "poetrix is very much in development,
so i'll give you a URL, but recommend that you don't
visit until after the chat, k?"
Salmon says, "things are, borky, as we say.."
D eena says, "Sure, I am on shaky ground here as
it is...want stuff for later reading."
Helen thinks there is silly and silly: some newbies
never get the point that this is "real"
Salmon says, "http://poetrix.net"
D eena wonders what borky is.
D eena says, "Helen, Salmon, Dene, all, what do
we mean by real here?"
Dryad agrees that silly and play are important...and
perhaps more useful in teaching the possibilities of
a MOO than introducing it as a chat room or an archive.
Helen says, "Bookmark poetrix to visit later...."
Dene says, "that it is happening?"
MazThing [to Helen]: well, it *is* and it *isn't* real.
MOOs are about consensual text....it is what you make
it, whatever the originator meant.
Salmon says, "isn't really interested in questions
about what is real"
Salmon isn't either :0
Dene nods
Dryad [to MazThing]: I very much like that notion of
"consensual text".
Salmon agress with dryad
Sue says, "sometimes the issue is not to make out
how much fun it is, but how serious it can be"
D eena says, "How do you teach the possiblities
of a MOO? What do students get out of these possibilities?"
Dryad [to MazThing]: both as consenting (agreeing) and
as "feeling together"...if I may play with
the word.
Helen invites everyone to contribute if they have something
to say: later we will tour MOO spaces
Dene says, "they move outside the realm they are
normally functioning in"
Sue says, "in my experience students can get rather
too carried away with the fun side"
Dryad smiles at Salmon.
Dene says, "moving outside of the norm makes them
have to rethink their ideas"
Dryad [to Sue]: as in any classroom when the teacher
is not in control
Helen nods at Dryad.
MazThing . o O ( writers don't have to be students though,
they can write as they please )
Dryad says, "isn't that really more a function
of the teacher's ability and preparation?"
Sue says, "so the teacher needs to know what they're
doing"
Salmon says, "teaching in moos requires a heck
of a lot of thought, preparation and felxibility"
Sue says, "mazzy - i thought we were talking about
teaching - "
MazThing nods at Salmon.
Helen says, "Yes, there are two aspects here -
writing - and teaching writing"
MazThing [to Sue]: and I thought we were talking about
writing...and teaching
Salmon says, "I love the fact that my students
(highschool) forget that I am there when we moo"
MazThing . o O ( my mistake )
deena2 says, "How do you use MOOs in teaching?
"
Salmon says, "i love the fact that they play with
language"
Helen notes that we will come back to the writing side
of it...
Dene says, "conferencing, online teaching, role-playing,
archiving"
Dene says, "to name a few on the fly"
Salmon says, "if we did nothing more than goof
off the whole time, I'd probably be happy - when do
kids ever feel that language is fun?"
Sue says, "there's a craft to MOOing which is as
much about coding as writing, I think"
Salmon nods at Sue.
Helen says, "I notes you were using the MOO as
an archive Dene - how does that work?"
Dryad says, "in some ways, being an eternal student
is inherent in MOOing, learning from other's programming,
for instance"
trusty has disconnected.
Salmon nods at Dryad.
Dene says, "I place all of my materials including
images and sound in them"
Dene says, "in our clasroom"
Dene says, "and I create for each work we read
an envrionment that reflects it"
Dene says, "to produce a sense of ambience"
D eena says, "Yes, I think that the writing and
creating side of MOOs cannot be separated from the teaching--it
becomces a synergistic whole --a way to create and interact
with others creations"
Helen says, "In many ways writers collaborating
and students collaboring in MOOs are going through similar
processes"
Sue says, "sounds very interesting Dene"
trusty has connected.
Salmon [to Dryad]: I backchanneled an earlier comment
about the programmer's manual - Ithink if we all understood
it, some moo communities would dissolve - it requires
us to be interdependent
Dene says, "I will give a tour when you are all
ready"
D eena says, "Dene--for each work--is that each
MOO work (object, room, space) or??"
Helen says, "Do you want to show anything off?
We are going to look at Nouspace later, but if there's
anything to show in Lingua, we should do it first"
Dene says, "for each literry work we read"
Dene says, "for instancxe"
Salmon likes dene's idea.
Dene says, "when we read The Bacchae"
Dene says, "I create a room called "Dance
Fever Disco"
Dene says, "there is music befitting the Maenads"
D eena puts on her Moo jacket for the tour--the one
with the cow face
Dene says, "and images of them and others in the
play"
Dene says, "for Innana"
Dene says, "I created a temple"
D eena says, "So the Moo becomes the place to experience
the literary work. Neat innovative teaching!"
Dryad [to Salmon]: absolutely [re prog manual and community]
Dene says, "yes, precisely"
Salmon . o O ( cool )
Dene says, "an interdisciplinary approach to teaching"
Salmon grins at Dryad.
Dene says, "students enter Mexico, the Garcia ranch
to read Like Water for Chocolate"
Salmon . o O ( yummy )
Helen says, "Shall we look at a couple of particpants'
spaces here at Lingua before we move off to - is it
Nouspace you want to welcome us Dene?"
Dene says, "yes, at Nouspace"
Dene says, "http://www.eaze.net:7000"
D eena says, "Wow. Do you use these spaces after
the course? These would take a lot of work...hope they
are permanently up so others can use them..."
Dene says, "Just go in as guest"
Helen says, "What age highschool do you work with
Katherine?"
Salmon says, "grade 9 - 12"
Dryad nods to cahoots.
Dene says, "I keep ALL OF MY work archived, Deena"
Dene says, "are we going now?"
Salmon says, "before we leave here, if somebody
could just poke me"
cahoots pokes salmon obligingly
Helen says, "Can we visit a coupel of spaces here
at Lingua first?"
Salmon says, "thanks, i mean really poke me"
Dene says, "we will meet in the Metro Terminal"
Salmon says, "type poke salmon"
D eena is relieved to see that...
Dene says, "i will take you from there"
D eena pokes .
Salmon says, "in communication with all of our
consciousness, in The confusion of boundaries and for
responsibility in their construction. it is opne; in
each of The most terrible and Perhaps The most sophisticated
computer simulation look like a dream not of a powerful
infidel heteroglossia. it is not just what we cannot
verbalize, as The work of Whorf and ethnolinguistics
has pointed out to us."
Salmon says, "thanks!"
cahoots pokes .
Salmon says, "us our politics."
Salmon says, "someone asked ealier about bots and
moos?"
Salmon says, "i've merged myself with a markov
bot"
D eena pokes .
MazThing peers at Salmon curiously.
Salmon says, "this is where i think moos are really
different in terms of a writing experience"
Salmon says, "the reader is part of a procedural
text"
D eena Can see the thin programming wires under Salmon's
eyes
Salmon says, "a programmed coded object"
Salmon says, "that can be endlessly mucked with"
Salmon says, "that's part of how i like to play
with the material and the immersive"
MazThing [to Salmon]: What do you mean, you have a number
of responses programmed on your character...generated
text...that 'emanates' from you without your volition?
Salmon nods at MazThing.
Salmon says, "even when i'm not logged on, I'll
talk"
cahoots is interested at the concept of a merged bot
Dene has disconnected.
Salmon says, "which does some really funky thigs
for our notion of presence"
MazThing says, "One of the things that I like about
the MOOlipo rooms is similarly, that...things happen
to ones own speech unexpectedly."
MazThing . o O ( that is very, very odd! )
Salmon worries herself.
Salmon grins.
MazThing smiles and thinks that Dene is *really* not
here now.
Salmon smiles at MazThing.
Salmon says, "have we moved?"
Dryad [to Helen]: where are we supposed to be now?
Dryad winks
Helen encourages anyone who would like to to go to nouspace
Sue says, "I'm in both"
Dryad is here and in Blue Bedroom (as Everdeen).
deena2 says, "I can't type in the Nouspace but
I am there."
cahoots is split in three, here, blue bedroom and nouspace
trusty says, " I'm here and Nouspace"
MazThing [to trusty]: The only bad news is that they're
off elseMOO now on a tour of Nouspace
Deena says, "Hi trusty, people are here and at
http://www.eaze.net:7000"
(Editor's Note: Some of the log at Nouspace
may become available in due course)
Deena says, "Yep, my screen won't
let me, I am in a Mcdonalds..."
D eena says, "and my time is nearly up...but it
was good to see you guys here...I'll follow later in
the log/archive..."
Deena leaves
Helen says, "Go to nouspace
I've just posted and type @join Grigar"
Dryad is in nouspace and here.
Espea arrives from trAce
trusty says, "I created a room here, but i haven't
used it... neither 'silly' nor 'interesting' yet"
Dryad [to trusty]: it takes time....not just to get
into the MOO frame ....but to know what you want to
do and how to use it
Helen says, "Lots of experimentation...."
trusty says, "I know I'll 'get it' at some point,
so I'll keep moving forward even if I don't have a purpose
in mind yet"
Dryad [to trusty]: I think that it helps having someone
to interact with ...
trusty says, "Cahoots was very helpful one day
in her bubble-dome"
Dryad says, "and it is often "quiet"
here...but we are around more often lately"
Dryad has been spending four-ten hours a day here some
weeks!
trusty says, "Ah ha! So this is where you've been"
Dryad says, "cahoots is very helpful."
Dryad says, "this is my virtual office really"
MazThing [to trusty]: well, I don't think it suits everyone
but I think there are lot of different possibilities
and maybe some of those would interest many
Dryad is confused being tri-located now!
Kepple has just realized you can look at pictures here
trusty says, "can you give me a simple example
of something 'interesting' and valuable?"
MazThing grins at Kepple.
Dryad says, "is everyone else in here using enCore?"
Dryad is on tkMOO here.
trusty says, "I am"
MazThing [to trusty]: well, for example, the ability
to write a story, or description which can interact
and change, maybe with the seasons, perhaps be illustrated,
with music associated....which can be exchanged from
person to person, added to....that, I think is interesting,
and valuable in the sense that I know no other medium
you can create such a thing in
MazThing says, "not simple, perhaps"
trusty says, "thanks Maz. I'll think on that idea."
MazThing says, "a simple thing might be...a conducive
space in which to think and write and chat"
MazThing smiles at trusty.
Dryad rustles leafily.
MazThing says, "and I really do think it depends
which oddities of MOOs grab one...in terms of where
to go and what to do and see"
Helen says, "Shall we officially close? You do
not have to leave! Further comments can be made at the
trAce forums when everyone has had a chance to think!"
Dryad nods
Dryad smiles thanks at Helen
-- End log: Sunday, February 16, 2003
4:00:22 pm CST
Discussions continue at the trAce
Forums thread linked to this chat
